Hi need help on a starter Q for a 40c

[dhallstead]

Thank you guys for all the help on the timing problem, which got me up and running. I have an early 40c crawler and now I tried to start it and it makes a whining sound. Like lots of current is going through. I had it connected to the charger and when I pulled the knob for the starter the voltage meter pegs out and makes the whining sound. I disconnected everything to the starter and tried to plug it direct and still the same thing. I can turn over the engine somewhat easy just to see if the engine is froze and it's not. I got my hammer out next and hammered on the starter. just some love taps to see if that would help. Nothing. I'm at a loss of where to go now,except for a bigger hammer Please help me to go in the right direction.

[JD440ICD2006]

Well, it could be several things.
Keep in mind that I am using GAAD diagnostics. (Guessing At A Distance)
Take the starter out. Get jumper cables and see if you can get it to run properly. If not, my guess is a partially shorted armature, or, needs new brushes.
What voltage battery are you using? These were 6 volt from the factory, but someone may have changed it to a 12 volt starter.
Also could be a faulty starter switch. They will wear to the point that it does not make good contact, even when pulled hard.
I hope this helps, let us know what you find.


Chuck W.

[snoopy]

If it a whinning sound, does that mean that the starter is turning over but not engaging the flywheel? If that is the case then the bendix is not engaging properly. Take starter out and clean it up and try again. If the whinning osund is more of a buzz and the starter is not turning over, then it may be a low voltage problem, batt connection, bad starter switch, or bad starter.

Good luck!

[Stretch]

Sounds to me like the bendix is stuck or bad.

[dhallstead]

Thank you for the replies, I don't know if it was a 6 volt starter but it is hook up to a 12 volt system now. It looks like the original starter. If that happened that it was a 6 volt and you hook up a 12 volt battery to it, Is that bad? Now the whining sound, sounds more like current than moving parts.

[Lavoy]

12 volts will eventually smoke a 6 volt starter if it is abused. My guess is that you are hearing the armature spinning, but the drive is not engaging. I would quit trying it and pull the starter off and get it rebuilt. If when it is spinning, it all of a sudden decides to engage, you may be looking for another starter and ring gear on the flywheel.
Lavoy

[Randynscottsboro]

Also be sure which way the ground is, + or - to the frame. If it is backwards, the starter runs backwards and the bendix will not go forward, but centrifical force will pull it rearward toward the windings instead toward the ring gear.
Randy

[wheeltool]

Also be sure which way the ground is, + or - to the frame. If it is backwards, the starter runs backwards and the bendix will not go forward, but centrifical force will pull it rearward toward the windings instead toward the ring gear.
Randy

This would be true if it was permanent magnet motor or any other DC motor where you can swap the armature OR the field, however most if not all starter motors are series wound DC Motors. If you don’t internally rewire the starter it will run the same direction. Lavoy is right about not abusing the starter as doubling the voltage doubles the current draw on a fixed resistance.

I have a 40 and a 40C that were changed to 12V NEG ground many years ago without any problems. Note - if changing from 6V to 12V you will need a ballast resister to drop the coil voltage or it won’t last long.

DJ

[dhallstead]

This is what I did today, took it all a part and brushes are down to ntohign and rubbing into the screw the holds it. This just had no sign of it doing that or I didn't notice. It had metal shaving from the brushing in the housing. Cleaned everything, ordered the $3 brushing. Now I'm worried about putting it back it and ruining the flywheel. Napa has a starter but it's $280 and still a 12volt system to a 6volt starter. Lavoy or anyone have one for cheaper than that? I'm going to get the brushes tomorrow and put them in and turn it over once and see what happens. Thank you again, all of you guys for all the help. Happy Valentine's Day

[JD440ICD2006]

You lucked out, it was the cheaper of the two things I said it could be.
Why are you now concerned about putting it back in? It should work fine.
Just make sure you run it in a little prior to putting it back in the tractor.
Starters are high amp draw and are designed for intermediate use. That means it would not be good to leave it running any length of time like you would a regular electric motor.
Let us know how it works out.

[Lavoy]

Get the armature cut prior to putting the new bushings in, that often times make a big difference.
Lavoy

[dhallstead]

OK, I put the brushes in and it worked great. The starter turns over and engages the flywheel without binding, when it is hooked up to a car and jumper cables. BUT when i try to start it without the jumper cables does not turn over. I let the battery charge for ten minutes. Battery shows 12.81 volts and when the JD is running I remove the cable and it dies right away. I shut it off and unplug the jumper cable and it reads 12.81 volts. Now when I turn it on (for the coil) and try to start it with the meter hooked to it, it drops down to 0.01. Then when I release the starter knob, it jumps back up to 12.67. I'm not sure what's going on. I'm lost right now and need some help. Domino effect

[H-D]

Hey, dude! Do you know how to measure voltage drop across your cables? If so, check that first; if not ,post back or search for the drill under DIY voltage drop test. Myself, I'd have the battery load tested after the insult the whacked starter has heaped on it. The zip voltage readin' at the coil while crankin' sounds like an open circuit on the resistor bypass wirin'. there should be a wire comin' off the starter solenoid (usually marked 'R' for resistor) & routin' directly to the + side of the coil (or the output side of the ballast resistor). You gotta run a ballast resistor (1.8 ohms on most GM applications) on a 12v system (unless you own a points makin' concern), 'cause the points don't like the full shot (coils aren't keen on it either). The bypass wire insures that you get sufficient voltage to the ignition while the starter is in action & causin' a major voltage drop. I betcha find a breakdown in your ground side cable, or its attachment to the block/powertrain. Good clean tight grounds are essential (star washers either side of the cable termination is a good idea too). Don't let the wind spill out of your sails, you're WAY close to right if she'll act right on jumper cables! Oh yeah, you can use the jumper cables to bypass your battery cables to test for for poor cables & connections (ol' poor boy method before we could afford meters!). Good On Ya!

[CAR]

Did you say when the tractor was running and you removed the cable from the battery the tractor died? If so, this sometimes is sign that you have an alternator/generator problem. I would look there too, you may have a dead short or a wire crossed that is pulling your battery amps. down. I would also try another battery, sometimes these things will foul you into thinking it is good when in realality you may have a bad battery cell. Just my thoughts.
Craig

[dhallstead]

That was a misprint on "cable" I meant "jumper cable" but the battery was still hooked up to the JD. I going to test and clean the cables on both the + & -. I cleaned all the cable connections that I could see. I don't have a alternator/generator on it. It was a alternator but the bearing went out and it froze on me. If it is safe and no short I'm going to hook up another battery.