elecrtical help

General help and support for your Lindeman through 2010 John Deere crawler
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Stretch
440 crawler
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Location: Albemarle, NC

Post by Stretch » Thu May 14, 2009 6:49 pm

I don't want to create a rucuss, but, basically the only difference between an alternator and a generator is the speed in which it will charge or maintain the electrical system.
Allbeit the alternator is rectified and would charge at idle, the generator needed to speed up to do the same amount of charging. Other than having an external regulator I believe the generator is as good a device as the alternator.
As far as I'm concerned as a rebuilder of automotive electric, with the exception of the regulator, I prefer to rebuild generators over alternators and the cost is comparible.
Now, I admit I might have flawed thinking. My wife says I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. :roll:
2010C Dozer, 2010C Loader
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.

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JD440ICD2006
350 crawler
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Post by JD440ICD2006 » Thu May 14, 2009 8:48 pm

I trust that Frozen gets the info that he is looking for to answer his electrical questions. Correct wiring can be perplexing on these old machines.
I could not agree more with you. One of my uncles (now deceased) made his living wiring electric motors and generators. I spent many hours in his shop when I was growing up.
I don't claim to know much, but I just like the generator/regulator set up. For one, it keeps the machines original, which increases their value. Two, I just like to watch the AMP meter crawl up when you increase the throttle, especially if the battery level is lower from a start up or sitting a while.
If the thought process behind changing to an alternator is more efficiency, why not change to digital gauges also? :lol:
A properly set up and grounded generator/regulator system will keep a battery charged as well as anything.
We know that alternators charge faster and higher at idle, but read your operator's manuals on these tractors and crawlers. They do not recommend idle except when you are starting up, stopping or under no load.
1959 JD 440ICD w/64 Power Angle Tilt Blade
1959 JD 440ICD w/63 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 440IC w/602 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 730D W SE (many options)
1950 JD M S w/M-20 Mower
1952 JD M W
1955 FORD 640 (burns the most fuel)

frozendozer
430 crawler
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Post by frozendozer » Thu May 14, 2009 10:40 pm

so basically from what i got is that it doesnt matter if the ground is positive or negative?

the generator and regulator will still function as it should?

so it should just be wire it up as per diagram?

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shinnery
350 crawler
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Location: Hawley, Texas

Post by shinnery » Thu May 14, 2009 11:00 pm

frozendozer wrote:so basically from what i got is that it doesnt matter if the ground is positive or negative?

True.
The only thing to be careful of, and should be a normal care, do not have any metal contacting the chassis of both machines if you are jumping it off your car or truck. The tires on the truck do a pretty good job of insulating the chassis from earth ground.
Bryce
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But, many electrons were terribly bothered.

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jdemaris

Post by jdemaris » Fri May 15, 2009 7:47 am

Stretch wrote:. . . basically the only difference between an alternator and a generator is the speed in which it will charge or maintain the electrical system.

Allbeit the alternator is rectified and would charge at idle, the generator needed to speed up to do the same amount of charging. Other than having an external regulator I believe the generator is as good a device as the alternator.
Well, I guess you'd have to define the meaning of "good."

There are several major differences between the two. They are both generators, but for purposes here, I'll call the older cast iron units on tractors the "generators", and the more modern aluminum units with rectifiers "alternators."

A generator depends on the brushes to carry charge current, so brush wear is MUCH faster than with a modern alternator and brush tension more critical.
A generator makes AC power, but . . . by placement of the brushes in proximity to the armature, only uses about half the power made. It selects half the AC pulses to make DC.
A generator also relies on a mechanical regulator with contact points, that is subject to wear, like any moving electrical part, switch, contactor, etc.

An alternator uses all the power made by coverting AC sine-wave pulses via rectifiers into direct current, so it is MUCH more efficient than a generator.
Also, an alternator only uses the brushes to carry exciter field current, not charge current - so brushes can almost last forever.
Also, most alternators have electronic regulators - and you can add one to any alternator that did not have it originally.

My point is, there is a huge difference between the two. Does it matter on an old part-time use tractor? All depends on what you use it for. Stick a couple of big headlights on your tractor with an old 10 or 20 amp generator and see how well it works at low engine speeds. Not well at all. A cheap junkyard $15 alternator can make 30-40 amps with the engine idling, whereas a 20 amp generator can barely make 5 amps with the engine iding.

Keeping the generator on an old tractor for cosmetic reasons certainly makes sense. But otherwise, I can't think of a good reason. A generator is more unreliable, has much lower output per size and weight, and is much more exspensive to maintain.

I'll add, that we did all our own injection pump, generator, alternator work, etc. at every dealership I worked at. With charging systems, the generator systems required more more maintenace per work done, as compared to any alternator system. Keep in mind that with many older tractors, all the generator had to do is keep the battery charged at a 2-5 amp rate. Whereas, many modern tractors might be running all night long with many lights running, high current draw attachments hooked up, etc. It's kind of an apples to oranges comparison since most older generator systems could not be made to do near as much work as the alternator systems.

jdemaris

Post by jdemaris » Fri May 15, 2009 7:51 am

frozendozer wrote:so basically from what i got is that it doesnt matter if the ground is positive or negative?

the generator and regulator will still function as it should?

so it should just be wire it up as per diagram?
If your regulator is made for neg ground, that is the only way it will work.
If your regulator is made for pos ground, THAT is the only way it will work.
If you have a convertible regulator marked POS and NEG, than it can be wired either way.

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JD440ICD2006
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Post by JD440ICD2006 » Fri May 15, 2009 8:16 am

This has turned out to be a really good topic.
It reminds me of the guy that asked what time it was, and his answer was based on how to design and build a clock. :lol:
Seriously, lots of good information here, even things that I did not know or possibly just forgot. It happens as we get older........................................what were we talking about? :oops:
1959 JD 440ICD w/64 Power Angle Tilt Blade
1959 JD 440ICD w/63 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 440IC w/602 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 730D W SE (many options)
1950 JD M S w/M-20 Mower
1952 JD M W
1955 FORD 640 (burns the most fuel)

jdemaris

Post by jdemaris » Fri May 15, 2009 10:27 am

JD440ICD2006 wrote:This has turned out to be a really good topic.
It reminds me of the guy that asked what time it was, and his answer was based on how to design and build a clock.older...............
I assume much of this is redundant to those that understand the systems. But, I also assume there are those on these forums that do not.

Generally speaking, an alternator has two to three times the maintenance-free life of a generator, and does so making twice the power - at low and high engine speeds. That's why tractors have 10 or 20 amp max generators, and with alternators - it's rare to find one smaller then 40 amps. And, most older generators make 1/4 capacity at engine idle, whereas alternators make 1/2 capacity at engine idle.

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