1959 440ICD Won't Start
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- 40C crawler
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:13 pm
1959 440ICD Won't Start
Hello everyone I am new to this board, and a week old owner of '59 440ICD SN 452494 with a 2-53 Diesel and 831 loader. Sorry if my post is kind of long, but I want to get you all the info I have here... I have reviewed all the related posts no exact matches though. Let me tell you whats going on.
My neighbor has let this crawler sit on our property line for about a year now. He said that "it over revved, and quit running." There is no tach, just a hr meter. I am not sure he knows what actually happened. But told me I could have it for $500. Of course I couldn't refuse, I have been a ASE Master auto tech for 12 years. And could use a crawler on the property here, don't have a tractor bigger then a 14 Simplicity riding lawn mower ROFL!!!
I walked up to the machine, and took a look at the oil and coolant levels. the coolant was about 1/2 gallon low, so I topped it off. The oil was a little over full, but it isn't on level ground either, so I disregarded that. It was quite clean also. I figured the battery was dead, noticed it was 12v, so I went and got the batterys off my jeeps, same size, age and 1000 CCA each. Hooked the one up like I took off the old one, pos to starter, and neg to block, then put some nice jumper cables pos to pos, and neg to neg. Tried to crank it, and it sounded good, not like it was resisting or anything.
Then I checked the fuel, it was very low, so I went to a truck stop and got 5 gallons of fresh. (wish I had drained all the old now) Filled it up, made sure the fuel was turned on (a valve under the tank at the line) cracked the line going to the head loose and cranked until it sprayed fuel. Then tightened it, and took the line loose on the top of the tank and cranked it, and got a steady stream of fuel from there, so put it back on. After this, it sounds like it hits 1 or 2 times on the first few revolutions but if you just keep cranking it doesn't hit again. The temp outside here in TN is about 75 degrees at this time. I pulled the rubber elbow off the blower, and cranked it with it off, whiteish blue vapor smoke comes from the blower, and when it hits 1 or 2 times you see a puff from the stack.
I talked to a friend, and he said to look inside the blower to see if its turning inside when you crank, it is. so I thought maybe restricted exhaust, so I took the stack and manifold off, its all good. Put it back on. Took the valve cover off, and watched all 6 valves moving while cranking... Put it back on....So far so good.... I gave a small shot of ether and put the tube back on the blower, and its about the same as before, a little harder to crank over at first, hit 1 or 2 times and nothing more.
I cross ref the wix fuel filter on it, filled it with Dextron V Trans fluid, and put it on. The old filter was nasty, and some water came out with the yellow fuel and some black fluid. Then cranked again, still not much different results. Kind of frustrated, I thought maybe I could move it with the starter and get it out of the woods onto the grass 15 feet away. Well, it moved for about 3 feet until I burnt up the starter... LOL!!! I wonder why? I should have known better... But anyway, Monday I am taking it into town and getting it rebuilt.... I spent 2 days playing with trying to get it to start, and verified the bucket works and it has all forward and rev gears and will turn while cranking... Guess I got bored with trying to get it to fire actually....
How should I be starting this, and/or what do you think is wrong?
1) When I crank the engine, it turns counter clockwise (view from sitting in the seat) Is that the correct direction?
2) I have it out of gear, with my foot on the clutch (left pedal)
3) I have tried throttle in all positions, seems at full throttle it cranks better, Where should I have it?
4) The reverser lever on the left should be pushed forward or pulled towards me during cranking?
5) The PTO switch next to the 5sp trans which direction should it be pointed for off?
After all of this, I rechecked the oil, its about a inch higher then it was when I started, but the coolant is the same level, I guess it dumped some fuel in the crankcase.
Any ideas or comments are very much welcome!! Thank you all for the great forums, I have already learned A LOT and cant wait to know even more!!
Eric - Riceville, Tennessee
My neighbor has let this crawler sit on our property line for about a year now. He said that "it over revved, and quit running." There is no tach, just a hr meter. I am not sure he knows what actually happened. But told me I could have it for $500. Of course I couldn't refuse, I have been a ASE Master auto tech for 12 years. And could use a crawler on the property here, don't have a tractor bigger then a 14 Simplicity riding lawn mower ROFL!!!
I walked up to the machine, and took a look at the oil and coolant levels. the coolant was about 1/2 gallon low, so I topped it off. The oil was a little over full, but it isn't on level ground either, so I disregarded that. It was quite clean also. I figured the battery was dead, noticed it was 12v, so I went and got the batterys off my jeeps, same size, age and 1000 CCA each. Hooked the one up like I took off the old one, pos to starter, and neg to block, then put some nice jumper cables pos to pos, and neg to neg. Tried to crank it, and it sounded good, not like it was resisting or anything.
Then I checked the fuel, it was very low, so I went to a truck stop and got 5 gallons of fresh. (wish I had drained all the old now) Filled it up, made sure the fuel was turned on (a valve under the tank at the line) cracked the line going to the head loose and cranked until it sprayed fuel. Then tightened it, and took the line loose on the top of the tank and cranked it, and got a steady stream of fuel from there, so put it back on. After this, it sounds like it hits 1 or 2 times on the first few revolutions but if you just keep cranking it doesn't hit again. The temp outside here in TN is about 75 degrees at this time. I pulled the rubber elbow off the blower, and cranked it with it off, whiteish blue vapor smoke comes from the blower, and when it hits 1 or 2 times you see a puff from the stack.
I talked to a friend, and he said to look inside the blower to see if its turning inside when you crank, it is. so I thought maybe restricted exhaust, so I took the stack and manifold off, its all good. Put it back on. Took the valve cover off, and watched all 6 valves moving while cranking... Put it back on....So far so good.... I gave a small shot of ether and put the tube back on the blower, and its about the same as before, a little harder to crank over at first, hit 1 or 2 times and nothing more.
I cross ref the wix fuel filter on it, filled it with Dextron V Trans fluid, and put it on. The old filter was nasty, and some water came out with the yellow fuel and some black fluid. Then cranked again, still not much different results. Kind of frustrated, I thought maybe I could move it with the starter and get it out of the woods onto the grass 15 feet away. Well, it moved for about 3 feet until I burnt up the starter... LOL!!! I wonder why? I should have known better... But anyway, Monday I am taking it into town and getting it rebuilt.... I spent 2 days playing with trying to get it to start, and verified the bucket works and it has all forward and rev gears and will turn while cranking... Guess I got bored with trying to get it to fire actually....
How should I be starting this, and/or what do you think is wrong?
1) When I crank the engine, it turns counter clockwise (view from sitting in the seat) Is that the correct direction?
2) I have it out of gear, with my foot on the clutch (left pedal)
3) I have tried throttle in all positions, seems at full throttle it cranks better, Where should I have it?
4) The reverser lever on the left should be pushed forward or pulled towards me during cranking?
5) The PTO switch next to the 5sp trans which direction should it be pointed for off?
After all of this, I rechecked the oil, its about a inch higher then it was when I started, but the coolant is the same level, I guess it dumped some fuel in the crankcase.
Any ideas or comments are very much welcome!! Thank you all for the great forums, I have already learned A LOT and cant wait to know even more!!
Eric - Riceville, Tennessee
your new toy
eric, from what you have described,, you have a blower seal out. the 2-53 is notorious for the "over-rev and pop" and sounds like you should pull injectors for a cleaning too.
you made the right decision for $500. find a deere dealer or another mechanic familiar with 2-53 detroits and where he gets his parts. one big battery is enough, sounds like you need a set of manuals to study...but ask away with any further questions too.
always use clutch when shifting any lever until you know what your doing. put reverser in fwd and leave it there. you don't want to mess that up until later when you have a spare 2K. the tranny has a reverse.
this forum will help you alot,, be sure to use the search tab , just read long enough and you'll find answers. and i'm sure you'll get all the experts chiming in ,, i don't think you should try starting it until fixed,,
that should get you on the right path, i'll look in tomarrow.
you made the right decision for $500. find a deere dealer or another mechanic familiar with 2-53 detroits and where he gets his parts. one big battery is enough, sounds like you need a set of manuals to study...but ask away with any further questions too.
always use clutch when shifting any lever until you know what your doing. put reverser in fwd and leave it there. you don't want to mess that up until later when you have a spare 2K. the tranny has a reverse.
this forum will help you alot,, be sure to use the search tab , just read long enough and you'll find answers. and i'm sure you'll get all the experts chiming in ,, i don't think you should try starting it until fixed,,
that should get you on the right path, i'll look in tomarrow.
440icd/602/8a,,440icd/831/ripper,,440icd/831/3pt.,misc. 440 parts, i have 5 of these now, but i can stop anytime
- JD440ICD2006
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 1113
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:57 pm
- Location: South Carolina
I agree with Pop Pop.
A runaway 2-53 is when the blower seals let go and oil goes past the seals from the shaft lube area in to the blower and on in to the engine. Oil, as you know, will burn under high pressure and heat, so it is like adding a lot of fuel, but it is going directly in to the cylinders instead of being metered through the injectors.
The damage it can cause runs from none, if it is shut down in time and properly, to needing a complete engine rebuild.
For $500, you are in this one right!
If there is a Detroit Diesel dealer near by, they can get any parts that are available including the seals.
The original blowers have a spring assisted seal. It is highly recommended that if yours has these, have the end plates drilled to accept the new style seals.
The seals are still available and are less than $6.00 each. Not sure what they will charge to drill the end plates, but the labor to rebuild the blower is about 2 hours which is around $250.
Keep us posted on how it goes.
A runaway 2-53 is when the blower seals let go and oil goes past the seals from the shaft lube area in to the blower and on in to the engine. Oil, as you know, will burn under high pressure and heat, so it is like adding a lot of fuel, but it is going directly in to the cylinders instead of being metered through the injectors.
The damage it can cause runs from none, if it is shut down in time and properly, to needing a complete engine rebuild.
For $500, you are in this one right!
If there is a Detroit Diesel dealer near by, they can get any parts that are available including the seals.
The original blowers have a spring assisted seal. It is highly recommended that if yours has these, have the end plates drilled to accept the new style seals.
The seals are still available and are less than $6.00 each. Not sure what they will charge to drill the end plates, but the labor to rebuild the blower is about 2 hours which is around $250.
Keep us posted on how it goes.
1959 JD 440ICD w/64 Power Angle Tilt Blade
1959 JD 440ICD w/63 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 440IC w/602 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 730D W SE (many options)
1950 JD M S w/M-20 Mower
1952 JD M W
1955 FORD 640 (burns the most fuel)
1959 JD 440ICD w/63 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 440IC w/602 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 730D W SE (many options)
1950 JD M S w/M-20 Mower
1952 JD M W
1955 FORD 640 (burns the most fuel)
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- 1010 crawler
- Posts: 301
- Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:08 pm
- Location: rhode island
- tuney443
- 440 crawler
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:28 pm
- Location: Poughkeepsie,NY
- Contact:
Why would you fill your fuel filter with Dexron V[which I really don't think even exists,think you meant VI] ATF? I would first take that filter off and flush out as much ATF as possible and put a new filter in with diesel this time.
Found the skull to the mastodon in Hyde Park, youngest one ever found so far in the world in 2000.
JD35D midi exc.
JD410G TLB
JD450D Dozer
2 JD 440 track loaders
JD 420 track loader
JD 450C track loader
JD35D midi exc.
JD410G TLB
JD450D Dozer
2 JD 440 track loaders
JD 420 track loader
JD 450C track loader
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- 40C crawler
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:13 pm
Your right, it is Dextron VI, sorry I forgot the I. I didn't have any diesel fuel left to fill it, except from the tank. Every diesel mechanic I have ever spoken to has said that installing a dry filter will make it hard to start (and it does because of air in the lines). And that Trans fluid is used to clean the injectors. I have replaced many diesel filters on trucks with Cummings, Duramax, and Detroit engines, and that is just how I have always done it. Smokes real nice if you do it right.
- tuney443
- 440 crawler
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:28 pm
- Location: Poughkeepsie,NY
- Contact:
Yes,of course you need to fill the fuel filter,but with diesel,and nothing else,otherwise the engine will not start due to air in the lines.ATF will not clean the injectors,it will actually do the opposite.The only safe additive is a fuel conditioner to add lubricity and improve the cetane rating.Old wives tales die hard I guess.You might get away with your snake oil treatment for a while with mechanical injectors,but with electronic injectors on the Dmax you're playing with a very expensive repair bill.
Found the skull to the mastodon in Hyde Park, youngest one ever found so far in the world in 2000.
JD35D midi exc.
JD410G TLB
JD450D Dozer
2 JD 440 track loaders
JD 420 track loader
JD 450C track loader
JD35D midi exc.
JD410G TLB
JD450D Dozer
2 JD 440 track loaders
JD 420 track loader
JD 450C track loader
-
- 40C crawler
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:13 pm
- JD440ICD2006
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 1113
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:57 pm
- Location: South Carolina
The way I try to approach an engine that refuses to start is to go back to the basics. For instance, with a gas engine, we must have air, good fuel, proper compression, and proper spark at the correct time. If those things are present, it will typically make some kind of noise.
The 2-53 "Gimmy" is a two cycle, two stroke engine. It must have compression (around 17 to 1 with the original "S" type, 21 to 1 with the "N"type), diesel fuel injected at the proper time, and also a properly working blower to scavenge the exhaust and charge the cylinder with fresh air. The blower is not timed to the engine, it is a continuos running device.
So from a basic stand point, you are looking at three major functions.
You also need a good battery and healthy starter to spin it at the proper speed. With no heat plugs, it has to make it's own heat by compression and the blower needs to be spinning fast enough to keep the cylinder air cycled properly.
Per the JD Operating Manual, "Do not operate cranking motor longer than 30 seconds at a time to avoid overheating the cranking motor."
What are you seeing out of the exhaut pipe after cranking on it for a while?
Keep us posted on your progess.
The 2-53 "Gimmy" is a two cycle, two stroke engine. It must have compression (around 17 to 1 with the original "S" type, 21 to 1 with the "N"type), diesel fuel injected at the proper time, and also a properly working blower to scavenge the exhaust and charge the cylinder with fresh air. The blower is not timed to the engine, it is a continuos running device.
So from a basic stand point, you are looking at three major functions.
You also need a good battery and healthy starter to spin it at the proper speed. With no heat plugs, it has to make it's own heat by compression and the blower needs to be spinning fast enough to keep the cylinder air cycled properly.
Per the JD Operating Manual, "Do not operate cranking motor longer than 30 seconds at a time to avoid overheating the cranking motor."
What are you seeing out of the exhaut pipe after cranking on it for a while?
Keep us posted on your progess.
1959 JD 440ICD w/64 Power Angle Tilt Blade
1959 JD 440ICD w/63 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 440IC w/602 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 730D W SE (many options)
1950 JD M S w/M-20 Mower
1952 JD M W
1955 FORD 640 (burns the most fuel)
1959 JD 440ICD w/63 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 440IC w/602 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 730D W SE (many options)
1950 JD M S w/M-20 Mower
1952 JD M W
1955 FORD 640 (burns the most fuel)
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- 40C crawler
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:13 pm
I don't see much at all coming from the exhaust except when it hits 1 or 2 times, you see a small puff of smoke. The rest of the time you see a white/bluish vapor coming from the blower hole while cranking. And the smell of diesel.
I went to Holston Gas company and talked to them about making some battery cables for me. I took the old cables with me, and it appears the biggest cable I can get will be #1 due to the 0/0 or 0/1 is too big for the proper lug size to fit over the cable.
I hope to get the starter back soon from the shop. A retired Detroit mechanic said he would come over and diagnose the problem for $100.
I went to Holston Gas company and talked to them about making some battery cables for me. I took the old cables with me, and it appears the biggest cable I can get will be #1 due to the 0/0 or 0/1 is too big for the proper lug size to fit over the cable.
I hope to get the starter back soon from the shop. A retired Detroit mechanic said he would come over and diagnose the problem for $100.
- JD440ICD2006
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 1113
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:57 pm
- Location: South Carolina
When you say "blower hole", are you talking about the intake on top of the blower?
1959 JD 440ICD w/64 Power Angle Tilt Blade
1959 JD 440ICD w/63 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 440IC w/602 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 730D W SE (many options)
1950 JD M S w/M-20 Mower
1952 JD M W
1955 FORD 640 (burns the most fuel)
1959 JD 440ICD w/63 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 440IC w/602 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 730D W SE (many options)
1950 JD M S w/M-20 Mower
1952 JD M W
1955 FORD 640 (burns the most fuel)
Just one note on your starting procedure.
I would have the thing in 5th gear(not neutral) with the clutch in so that if it did start and begin to run away you could dump the clutch, stand on the brake and kill it.
The Detroit man's diagnosis may be the best $100 bucks you spend.
Chuck
I would have the thing in 5th gear(not neutral) with the clutch in so that if it did start and begin to run away you could dump the clutch, stand on the brake and kill it.
The Detroit man's diagnosis may be the best $100 bucks you spend.
Chuck
1960 440ICD #461094 w/ #63 manual blade Converted to a gas engine two owners ago.
-
- 40C crawler
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:13 pm
- JD440ICD2006
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 1113
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:57 pm
- Location: South Carolina
Always hard to do this from a distance but it sounds like you have blower issues and/or valve train issues. If the starter was spinning it near fast enough to start, you should not have anything coming out of the blower inlet.
I agree with the other Chuck, if you have a $100 and this guy is an old Detroit guy, it is a no brainer to employ him to fix it.
I agree with the other Chuck, if you have a $100 and this guy is an old Detroit guy, it is a no brainer to employ him to fix it.
1959 JD 440ICD w/64 Power Angle Tilt Blade
1959 JD 440ICD w/63 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 440IC w/602 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 730D W SE (many options)
1950 JD M S w/M-20 Mower
1952 JD M W
1955 FORD 640 (burns the most fuel)
1959 JD 440ICD w/63 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 440IC w/602 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 730D W SE (many options)
1950 JD M S w/M-20 Mower
1952 JD M W
1955 FORD 640 (burns the most fuel)
on the Dmax you're playing with a very expensive repair... ah ,
i wouldn't waste my time on a dudmax, just scrap it.
use the crawler and push it in a hole....along with the new owner of GM.
it'll give you that great GM feeling.....
as for the 440jimmy, one other hint,,,make sure the injectors are set at the right depth,
in previous posts this issue has come up.
i wouldn't waste my time on a dudmax, just scrap it.
use the crawler and push it in a hole....along with the new owner of GM.
it'll give you that great GM feeling.....
as for the 440jimmy, one other hint,,,make sure the injectors are set at the right depth,
in previous posts this issue has come up.
440icd/602/8a,,440icd/831/ripper,,440icd/831/3pt.,misc. 440 parts, i have 5 of these now, but i can stop anytime
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