420c not shifting into gear

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shinnery
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by shinnery » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:58 pm

Your second and third links bring up the same picture for me. Your first picture appears to show your S/N tag, near your starter.
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Jim B » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:07 am

Good morning,

I see you changed the third photo and it is the loader ID tag now. I'm having brain cramp and not thinking of the name from what I see, someone will recognize it. You will likely be able to get more detail from it with some careful cleaning.

I marked up one of your photos to be sure we are looking at the same thing. You are correct on the clutch adjustment cam bolt. The hole you found is access to grease the throwout bearing. The operators manual says 2 shots with a grease gun every 75 operating hours.

Image

From looking at your photos the way the clutch pedal sets ahead of the brake it is likely that it is not traveling enough to release the clutch. As Lavoy said, getting the shafts freed up is the first step. How to succeed at that, with out a teardown, will be the challenge. Keep putting the penetrating oil to them. You should be able to get the footrest plates out of the way to have better access to the pedal shafts. One thing I think of that might be worth a try is an induction heater, like "Bolt Buster" or one of the "Induction Innovations" heaters. If you know someone who has one you might get them to try it. No open flame from an induction heater, not to say flames won't develop from the heat generated if "trash" contacts the hot parts. I imagine flame heat is a concern in your area. I can see using it on the brake pedal end of the shaft if you can get the pedal off the shaft. The clutch end of the shaft you would have to heat the clutch pedal at the shaft, as I don't think you can get it off without pulling the brake shaft. Hopefully others will have more ideas for you and correct something here if I misspoke.

If you have access to a bore scope you could go through the grease access hole and look at the pressure plate and throwout bearing. If pressure plate fingers or the throwout bearing are broke/worn away/gone it needs to come apart away and fixing the pedal shafts can be done then. Thinking about moving it to a better location to work on it; can you get it in gear at all when running? If not; If you start it in neutral and warm it up, shut it off, and put it in 1st or reverse gear, will it start in gear so you can move it on its own power? Keep trying, it will come.

Jim

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420CrawlerHoller
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by 420CrawlerHoller » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:42 pm

Thank for the diagram. Question, should that hole to grease the throwout bearing be capped? I was wondering if mice could get in there or other critters. When I first resurrected this thing, some kind of critter had made its way into one of the cylinders and built up so much debris it couldnt move.

Question 2, The clutch pedal has play at the top when it is not pressed down.... and it does reach the floor all the way when I press the pedal despite the brake being frozen with it... I guess Im a little confused about when the clutch is "released", thats when the pedals are not pressed right? My problem is that I am not able to get it in gear using the fwd/reverse / neutral shifter.... oddly I cant find that in my manuals to know exactly what its called exactly. I rarely shift the dozer using the regular stick shift on the floor, I usually just keep that in 1st or second and use the fwd/reverse shifter to go forwards backwards. Am I doing it wrong?

shifter is seen in this photo. it is between the brake an the gear shift on the floor.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lHREX_ ... sp=sharing

Next time Im up there Im going to bring a grease gun and hit all the points, put new gear oil in etc. When I put grease in that throwout bearing hole, is it just a matter of shooting grease in there? or should I be aiming for something? Before I do that I assume I should be attempting to film in there with a bore camera if I can find one. I would assume that a glob of grease would hurt my chances of seeing anything in there with the camera?
Last edited by 420CrawlerHoller on Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
1957 420C Crawler / 1950(?) Massey Fergussen Tractor / 1952 International Harvester TD-24

Jim B
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Jim B » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:50 pm

Good evening,

The photo you attached is of the loader tag not the shift lever.

To answer your questions.
1. Yes, there is supposed to be a small sheet metal cover over that opening. It is kind of tear shaped and held by 1 capscrew at the top on the ones I’ve seen. You may have a bolt broken off in the housing just above that hole, if you don't see a threaded hole there. You can make something that will work when the time comes. It is possible mice have been in there, they can cause a lot of problems.

2. There is supposed to be a grease fitting (a.k.a. zerk) on the throwout bearing collar inside that hole. Don’t just squirt grease in the opening. You need the grease gun coupler on the fitting and give it 3 pumps. (the book says 2 pumps but it has been a while since it was greased, I expect.) If you don’t find the zerk, don’t put any grease in there.

3. Clutch released is opposite of what you are thinking. This refers to the clutch itself, not the clutch pedal. Clutch engaged is: Foot off the pedal, pedal completely up, throwout bearing not touching the pressure plate and the pressure plate is squeezing the clutch disc to the flywheel. Clutch disengaged is: Foot on the pedal, the pedal completely pushed down/ahead, throwout bearing has moved towards the engine and pushed the fingers on the pressure plate which removes the clamping pressure on the clutch disc. Clutch free play is: the movement of the clutch pedal from its highest point (clutch engaged) to where you feel (use your hand to move the pedal) the throwout bearing contact the pressure plate fingers. The measurement is taken at the top of the pedal.

4. Since it is seized to the brake pedal, your clutch pedal is not back/up as far as it is supposed to be, so it lacks some of the travel it needs, which is throwing the clutch system out of whack. Right now, even though the pedal goes clear down, the linkage travel is not enough to move the throwout bearing and pressure plate fingers as much as needed to disengage the clutch. The clutch pedal is supposed to have about 1” of free play. You likely have 4” or more, if you figure the distance the clutch pedal currently is compared to where it should be.

5. Yes, if you get a bore camera, look before you grease. You need to look towards the engine. Look for broken, bent or worn away parts. You might find a big mouse nest, hard to say what you will see.

6. The forward-neutral- reverse thing is called a reverser. Be gentle with your reverser, those parts are really hard to come by. That type needs the clutch used when shifting it, as you have been doing. While you are having these clutch problems, you may be better to put it in forward and leave it there, use the reverse in the regular transmission. Don’t use the reverser in reverse and the transmission in reverse at the same time; its not good for them. I'll see what there is for info on the reverser in the manuals I have and if I find something worthwhile we'll find a way to get it to you.

Jim

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420CrawlerHoller
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by 420CrawlerHoller » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:32 pm

thank you. Is that reverser some kind of after market mechanism? so normally people operating these crawlers just use the stick shift for fwd backwards? just curious if it would make sense to try and start it up with reverser in FWD and the gear shift in neutral and try to get it in gear that way (using clutch) if i have to move this thing onto a flatbed and haul it out for mechanical work.
1957 420C Crawler / 1950(?) Massey Fergussen Tractor / 1952 International Harvester TD-24

Jim B
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Jim B » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:14 pm

The reverser was an option on them from JD.

If I wanted to try to move it I would put the reverser in forward and the transmission in neutral. Start it, warm it up, and lift the blade. Try to get the transmission in gear using the clutch. If it goes in, good, if not shut it off. Stay in the seat, put the transmission in gear, get everyone clear, then start it. It should start in first or reverse as needed. You should be able to steer as normal and shut it off to stop. Not ideal, go slow, and you should be able to load it if needed.

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420CrawlerHoller
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by 420CrawlerHoller » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:25 pm

unfortunately, another problem is that the ignition switch doesnt turn the thing off, the guy that I had work on this thing said that electric is back flowing from the generator and not even pulling the battery cable off shuts it. Ive been just turning the fuel line valve off to shut it down, or sometimes I choke it to turn it off. both methods after idling it for a few minutes.
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Stan Disbrow
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Stan Disbrow » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:39 am

Hi,

I do not see a reverser in the photos. Unless it is the early gear-type reverser and the lever is on the right-hand side and just out of view. The trans is the 4-speed based on the shift lever. The later differential-style reverser has a different center frame and bell housing and the lever is on the left. I see the first type of center frame, which might have a gear-type reverser inside. So, only a lever on the right can tell if one is there.

A reverser was a factory option. In use, one usually reverses with the reverser, not the trans reverse. If you do use the trans reverse, keep the reverser in forward. Never use both reverses to gain an additional forward speed. That blows the reverser in short order.

The ignition and light switch is gone, so no knowing how the wiring is hooked up. It is supposed to turn off both the ignition and the cut-out relay in the voltage regulator. Obviously it isn't.
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Jim B » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:55 am

Hi Stan,

He changed the photo. the current one shows the right hand reverser lever.

420CrawlerHoller,

Sending you a PM (Private Message).

Jim

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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Lavoy » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:50 am

102XXX crawler could have had reverser from factory as an option, or they can be field installed. Trans would always have a reverse on all 2 cylinder crawlers regardless of reverser, just don't use reverse and reversed at the same time to make another forward gear. I also do not use the reverser when pulling extremely heavy loads backwards, just use reverse in the trans. Reverser shifter lever will be on the RH side.
If the generator is putting power to the ignition something is really wired goofy, you need a wiring harness or possibly a switch, neither is an issue.
The grease hole you show is not factory, but was a factory deal. In later years you could get the greaseable throwout carrier, and they told you where to drill the hole to grease it. You could also hook a grease hose to it and use a smaller hose with an elbow, close nipple, and a coupling with a zerk in it that was then on the outside and exposed.
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by 420CrawlerHoller » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:08 pm

Welp... I guess Im at a big crossroads. I went up to check the crawler and see if I could do anything about it. I met with a tractor mechanic who said he'd come out just to diagnose it. The throwout bearing and the clutch linkage are intact. something is not disengaging the clutch plate though. we adjusted the adjusting cam to as far as possible counter clockwise and it seemed to bottom out... I greased the nipple inside the hole... got the engine fired up and it still wouldnt go into gear. we disengaged the brake linkage to see if maybe the brake was bottoming out before the clutch could fully disengage. didnt seem to affect it. looked at it with a bore cam, we thought we could see the clutch spinning or it was some kind of disc spinning. looked cruddy...

all in all, looks like the clutch has to be rebuilt. talking about $3000 over here IF someone is willing to take it on. may end up going higher. This lil monster has so much sentimental value, Im crazy enough to get into 3-4grand of repair. BUT I do have plans and uses for it. Mostly clearing brush and grading road, digging out ponds. and i dont even want to think about the $2500 i spent getting it running. Is that stupid though to spend even more? If the engine was just tuned up, and the clutch is re done... it should give me some years no? the mechanic who came out, he was awesome and a real good honest dude. old tractors arent his thing and he didnt want to take something on that was going to be in his shop for a year. i understand. i need to find someone though.... or am I dumb and wasting money.
1957 420C Crawler / 1950(?) Massey Fergussen Tractor / 1952 International Harvester TD-24

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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Lavoy » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:36 am

$3000 is so far past ridiculous I am just stunned. Can you do the work yourself? It is not difficult if you have the tools and a place to work on it. There has to be another option. Where are you located?
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by 420CrawlerHoller » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:00 pm

Lavoy, I would do it myself if I had the tools.... Its not really in a place where I can work on it - no electric, dirt floor in the barn and I live about 200 miles away from it. I really cant afford it but I dont know what it is, I just need it to run, its the best thing that has happened to me in a while. probably cleared 2 acres of brush so far. The dozer is in San Luis Obisbo CA and there are mechanics up there but thats the estimate range Im getting so far from 2 sources.
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Lavoy » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:56 pm

WOW!
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420CrawlerHoller
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by 420CrawlerHoller » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:38 pm

what do you think it should cost? or rather, how many hours are we talking? rates here seem to be $100 / hr
1957 420C Crawler / 1950(?) Massey Fergussen Tractor / 1952 International Harvester TD-24

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