440 Reverser Problem

[Toivo1037]

Hello,
My father has a JD 440 crawler with loader. Last year I was trying to free up a frozen front clutch on the reverser, and broke something in the front clutch assembly. Since I was a bit afraid to try and service the reverser myself, I pulled the reverser and sent it to a dealer to have it serviced. They returned it and I put the tractor back together, then went through the adjustment procedure, only to find out that it does not work properly. The reverser seems to work properly in the reverse position, that is you can pull the lever back, and the clutches will engage, the tractor will begin to move, and the lever will ‘snap’ into position and stay there. But when you push the lever in the forward position, the clutch will engage, the tractor will move, but the lever never ‘snaps’ into position. I pulled the reverser and sent it back to the dealer explaining the problem. They supposedly pulled it apart and fixed it again. I re-installed the reverser only to have the EXACT same problem. They claim it is an installation problem, then an adjustment problem. Trust me, I am intimate with the adjustment procedure on the reverser at this point, but I varied the procedure several different ways trying to get that lever to lock in the forward position, with no luck. The actual installation is fairly straight forward, so I can’t see where that is the issue.

Does anyone have any ideas on what can be the problem? At this point I am desperate as people that know anything about these reversers are few and far between! I need to get the dozer working as this has dragged out for almost a year at this point, and it is now holding up the construction of my new house.

Thank you,
-Neil

[digitup]

Ask Lavoy about this as this is his area but it sounds like the shaft seals may be damaged when reinstalling .I find that taking components to dealers can be a nightmare.I would say check your shaft seals but 440s are kind of between my machine knowledge of the 40 or 450s and newer Digitup.

[Toivo1037]

I will give a a couple of days to see if Lavory will respond.

Not sure how the shaft seal would cause this. If it did I would assume that I would feel some sort of binding when re-installing, and that was not the case - unless it happens internal without a sign externally. I was able to slip the reverer into the transmission, and it slipped right on, and bolted up. The engine slipped onto the reverser, and once the splines on the shaft were lined up, it also slid right back onto the reverser. The adjustment procedure went OK as well so at this point I am at a loss. The only thing I can figure is that the dealer did not service it properly, problem is that I did not want to open it up myself, but I guess it is at that point now.

It sounds like there are a cople of us on here with reverser problems. Maybe we should all get together and figure these out!

It is currently together, but this is what it looked like the last time the reverser came out:

-Neil

[Lavoy]

Typically I would say it is an adjustment problem. If the crawler will move, it is engaging the clutch, but if it won't snap over, that usually means that the clutch pack is adjusted too tightly. FYI, and you may know this, but don't make a habit of slipping the reverser clutches by using them to move the crawler.
What I would try if you have not, is to back the clutch off so far that it does not engage with enough force to pull the crawler. Then tighten one or two notches at a time to see if it will overcenter. Also check you linkage closely for any worn components, and or binding. Seems to me I saw one once that had a bolt in place of a pin in the linkage, and it prevented it from engaging. I also seem to remember one that had so much play in the linkage that it could not push the shifter rail far enough to get it to overcenter. One way or the other, we should be able to figure it out.
Lavoy

[Toivo1037]

Thanks Lavory, over-center was the term I was searching for and could not remember. I also now know that you should be using the engine clutch while changing the reverser, which may have been part of the original problem. Now as it sits in the shop, you would have to hold your hand on the reverser handle constantly to keep the front clutch engaged. I know that is not right, and have only moved the tractor 10 feet this way for fear of new damage.

I did try to bring both clutches way out of adjustment, and then slowly bring them back, with no joy. I tried the back, then front. re-adjust properly, then I also tried the front then back, same effect. I backed them both off over 25 clicks, and the reverser handle would just flop around without any engagement. I believe that the handle was traveling as far as it used to go when it did over-center, but I will check that travel distance tomorrow. Also there is no 'hard bottom' to the handle, it seems like I am still straining against a clutch, although it may be a little give in the handle, linkage and pin assembly.
-Neil

[Toivo1037]

OK got to the shop this evening and took another look. The reverser lever linkage seems to be all OK, there is a little slop, but acceptable. The shaft which goes into the reverser continues to move until the lever becomes too hard to push. There is no hard bottom-out, just gets harder and harder until you can't go any farther. The shaft seems to move about 2 inches total, 1 inch each way (I did not think to bring a tape measure with). Looking at the pivot and then the shaft going into the forward position, it does not appear that it can really go any farther. If it can it can't be much more at all.

The service manual I have for this dozer doesn't say much about the inside of the reverser. Is there another manual just for that?

Any suggestions on my next move?

Thanks,
-Neil

[Lavoy]

It still sounds like an adjustment in the one clutch pack. The only other thing that comes to mind it there is a broken piece in the clutch pack somewhere. You could pull the shifter rail off and look in there to see.
Lavoy

[Toivo1037]

By clutch pack adjustment, are you referring to the rear then front clutch adjustment after reverser installation as outlined in the manual, or an internal adjustment? (Is there one?)
I thought that I was adjusting them properly, but maybe not. I adjusted the rear one, and it seems to work properly, and then followed the same procedure on the front, and that is where the problem is.

Is there a different clutch adjustment procedure then the one described in the service manual?

I can try to take the side rail off, but I have tried before, and it is damn impossible to see anything with the loader on. It would be easier to pull the reverser out again then taking the loader off.

[Lavoy]

Yes, adjustment as outlined in the manual. Yeah, with a loader they are a real pain to do anything on. I really hate to have you pull the reverser out again, that is not fun either. Double check that you are adjusting the offending clutch pack as the book recommends, but barring that, looks like you may have to pull it again. I wish I had a better answer for you.
Lavoy

[Toivo1037]

Don't apologise, I will do what needs to be done, period. Whe it comes doen to it, it broke while I was using it, and I am paying for and spending my time to return it to my father in as good or better condition. (It will be in better condition simply becase I steam cleaned it at the start!)

If or when this thing comes out, is there something in particular that I should look for that is not right?

[Lavoy]

Look at the offending clutch pack. There are 3 small links that actuate it, and sometimes a pin will fall out, or I have had the plate itself break.
Lavoy

[Toivo1037]

Well guys, it has been a while since I have been here, so I thought that I would stop back in. I am still screwing around with the reverser. I have been looking for anyone within driving distance that have messewd with one of these, but no luck 3 more months later. So soon, I am going to take the plunge and crack that thing open myself. I figure if it don't work, can't really hurt it much more, and if all else fails I still have the streight shaft to put in.

Wish me luck, and I will report back when I get into the grease.

-Neil

[JD4302010]

I have been thru the reverser on a 430C and I think there the same. I am in northern Michigan on the west side. Let me know if I can help and contact phone number.
Joe

[Toivo1037]

Freshly back from vacation.

Message sent

[Toivo1037]

Well, got it pulled out again. Time to roll up my sleaves and see if I can figure this thing out myself. I will report back later, and try to remember to take a few pics too.