Steering brake making unusual noise

General help and support for your Lindeman through 2010 John Deere crawler
User avatar
Paul Buhler
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 935
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: Killington, VT

Steering brake making unusual noise

Post by Paul Buhler » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:19 pm

Hi: My 420 has a grinding noise, somewhat like a rock caught in the tracks, in the right steering brake area. Only occurs in forward, and goes away if I apply some pressure to the brake pedal. If no pressure, dozer comes to a quick stop when the clutch is depressed - no coasting. The crawler steers and pushes well in both directions. It's raining so I will wait until tomorrow to open up the top cover and take a look. Any thoughts will be appreciated. Thanks.

Btw, I loosened the tracks to see if that might have been the cause of the noise - no such luck. I also power washed the machine and checked for play in the sprocket or any other obvious easy to identify possibilities- none found.Paul
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

country53
440 crawler
440 crawler
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:59 pm
Location: Kentucky

Steering brake making unusual noise

Post by country53 » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:58 pm

My 420 did that a couple of years ago. I took it apart and found the square piece of metal that locates the band had broke off. If this is the problem do not try to weld it back on, doesn't work well save yourself a lot of work and time and get another one.

User avatar
Lavoy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 9430
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:32 pm
Location: North Dakota
Contact:

Post by Lavoy » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:14 am

Make sure you didn't lose a final bearing, and the noise is the sprocket hitting on the track stop.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

User avatar
Paul Buhler
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 935
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: Killington, VT

Post by Paul Buhler » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:15 am

Thanks guys. I've been waiting to do the clutches, brake bands, seals, etc. at some point "when I have the time", but I guess the time may have come. Any other thoughts are welcome as well.

Lavoy, I'll be emailing you for a price on needed parts soon. Paul
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

User avatar
Paul Buhler
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 935
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: Killington, VT

Post by Paul Buhler » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:06 pm

Started to dig into my final drive and steering. I took some pictures of my machine including some of the Gearmatic winch attachments and insides.
Image Shows that the sprocket isn't hitting the last roll - a good thing.
Image This side of my machine uses three big bolts to dog the sprocket; the other side uses dowels. The dowels make removing the sprocket easier. These bolts don't clear the axle cover for removal - the previous owner cut one head at an angle to get clearance- maybe the others should be done too. Any thoughts?
Image Track, fender and sprocket out of the way. Shows the winch tensioning rod which I've loosened and will slide out of the way for the final drive's removal. The oil on the frame is from when the hydraulic tank overflows onto my foot when working on a steep incline. The oil at the quill needs to be dealt with.
ImageInside by the clutches and brake band. Can't see anything that is causing the grinding noise, but there is some oil weeping from the transmission and it's only a matter of time before it gets onto the clutches or brake band. While the machine still steers and pushes well, I know that the steering adjustment is about all gone.
Image A close up of the winch mount.
ImageWinch with cover removed. new clutch, bearing, hose, piston seal and brake band last year.
ImageWinch cover going back on.
Imageexposed view. Ready to re- read the manual and dig into the final drive - never done that before.

I always appreciate comments - there is a lot of experience on this board and shared tricks and hints are useful. Paul
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

whiteclipse16
2010 crawler
2010 crawler
Posts: 620
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:02 am
Location: Steubenville, OH

Post by whiteclipse16 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:26 am

Don't let it intimidate you. I thought it was really simple. The large bearing on the axle shaft is somewhat fun to press all the way on that shaft.
Ben

Great Grandpa's 1960 440ICD 602 blade
Between SN's: 455,633 - 456,801
Currently Rebuilding/Restoring

User avatar
Paul Buhler
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 935
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: Killington, VT

Post by Paul Buhler » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:51 pm

Any thoughts? The final drive is caught on the track frame and splined shaft and won't come away from the crawler without damaging the throw out bearing guide tube. I'm game to move the track frame, but figured I'd ask for thoughts before I do.
Thanks. Paul
Image
Image
Image
Image
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

JimAnderson
1010 crawler
1010 crawler
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:01 pm
Location: Gloucester,Virginia

420 final

Post by JimAnderson » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:03 pm

Paul,slide the final back in a little and remove the upper bearing quill.
Remove the snap ring and wiggle the pinion gear out.The brake assembly can be left in the steering clutch housing and the final will have more than enough clearance to come out.If you save the pinion shim pack you can use them at reassembly.I have found a much easier method to put all this back together than what the service outlines.If you are interested PM me.Luck,JimAnderson

User avatar
Paul Buhler
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 935
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: Killington, VT

Post by Paul Buhler » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:24 pm

Thanks Jim. I saw that there is a retaining clip holding the shaft.
Is this something that usually has to be done? The manual made it sound like this would be a simple lift off, move to a bench and then dig into the final or the clutch housing as needed. I hope you keep looking over my shoulder as I dig further into the clutch and brake system. One thing I want to change out is the right steering lever and shaft - in the past someone welded them together. Once I have my final apart I'm planning a visit to our friend Fred to see what I need and what he might have. Thanks again, Paul
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

original possum
440 crawler
440 crawler
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:34 pm
Location: Shiner, texas

Post by original possum » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:54 pm

I'm pretty sure it will clear if you slide the shaft back into the ring gear housing. But someone cut off the stuff in the way on my 40C since it had no real purpose.
Early 40C w/Yakima toolbar and homebuilt ripper: 350 w/6-way

User avatar
Paul Buhler
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 935
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: Killington, VT

Post by Paul Buhler » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:39 pm

Success, thanks for everyone's help so far;particularly to Jim Anderson who's been sharing personal messages with me as well.

I took off the quill cover as Jim suggested and found one slightly loose bolt and that one of the shims was broken up and missing a small bit - the source of the quill leak, The snap ring wasn't seated fully and appears to have been moving around since I had to carefully file off a ridge that had built up to get the outer bearing off. Once this was done, the bearing came out easily, and the shaft and clutch assembly slid into the transmission enough for the final to be twisted and lifted clear of the track frame. I brought it into my shop where I have a ceiling I-beam with a rolling hoist - nice for lifting heavy things to a more comfortable height. Once over the work bench, I removed the small gear and second bearing through the quill cover opening - I got lucky, they didn't fall out while moving the final inside. The bearings roll smoothly in their races and the gears look very nice - no significant wear, and no chips (even look almost new). No current gouges in the housing either (some can be seen from a past event). The final drive gear has no apparent slop and runs smoothly and true in its bearings, and there are no leaks at either end. The inner oil seal by the clutch on the final drive shaft has some tears and is leaking oil into the clutch housing and onto the brake band. Happily, none got on the clutches or the clutch assembly. I think that there probably is excessive end play in the drive shaft and I see some lateral movement inside the clutch hub so something is moving enough to damage this seal - I think that at the least, a new pilot bearing is needed along with a new seal and shims to set the correct end play.
The final is draining overnight and I'll get it cleaned up tomorrow. I'm wondering how to measure the accumulated wear and life left in the clutches - they seem to be in good shape as is the pressure plate. The throw out bearing feels good, but it has some small tears in the sealing edge where it slides on the carrier tube closest to the clutch fingers - I think I saw new bearings with out these wiper seals so are they important?
Ok, that's where I'm at tonight. Tomorrow or the next day, I'll dig into the brake area and get things cleaned up.
BTW, at this point, I think that the accumulated wear and oil leaks contaminated the brake band enough to make a somewhat dried out grease coating which dragged between the band and drum causing the groaning that I heard. In the absence of other obvious causes for this noise, I may be getting lucky and learning a new skill too. I'm still planning on fixing the steering lever, shaft and any other parts that are contributing to the slop that seems to exist. Thanks again for sharing your own thoughts, experience and skills with me. Set me straight if my thinking is flawed. Paul
Image
Image
ImageImage
ImageImage
Image
Last edited by Paul Buhler on Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

User avatar
Lavoy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 9430
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:32 pm
Location: North Dakota
Contact:

Post by Lavoy » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:02 pm

Many times the ridge on the outside of the pinion shaft is the bearing spinning on the shaft. Make sure that both bearings are tight on the shaft, or they are almost impossible to keep from rotating on the shaft and causing wear.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

User avatar
Paul Buhler
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 935
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: Killington, VT

Post by Paul Buhler » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:12 pm

Lavoy:
How do you do this? Do you use something between the shaft and bearing to keep them from spinning? Thanks. Paul

edit: Ok, trying to do my own homework. Went out looked at my parts and see that the inner bearing has been spinning on the pinion shaft. The outer bearing has acceptable "grip". Will using this Loctite product work or...?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/220112 ... dc_id=eBay

Thanks in advance. Paul
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

User avatar
jtrichard
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 1891
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:48 pm
Location: Joshua Tree CA

Post by jtrichard » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:02 pm

as for wear on clutches look at how much gap you still have under the washers under the adjusting bolt on the pressure plate...amount of gap left = how much wear is left before slipping
2010 with 622 dozer with mod. 35 ripper and a 2010 with 622 dozer bought in 1969 and a 2010 loader with drott and mod. 36 ripper

whiteclipse16
2010 crawler
2010 crawler
Posts: 620
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:02 am
Location: Steubenville, OH

Post by whiteclipse16 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:19 am

Paul, glad you got it all apart without too much trouble. I think my 440 manual says to rotate the final drive roughly 45 degrees or so and that will let it clear the track frame, it sounds like the other method suggested is easier.
Upon assembly, I found it was easier to put the brake band on the drum and then, very carefully, pin the brake band linkage to the rest of the linkage in the clutch housing once fitted together.
The locktite stuff might work. My dad usually just takes a center punch and puts a few good marks around the shaft with it. By marks I mean, he actually hits the punch with a hammer as if he's making a mark to drill it. This actually swells a tiny bit of metal up and out away from the center punch hole. It's always worked for us but there may be better ways.
Ben

Great Grandpa's 1960 440ICD 602 blade
Between SN's: 455,633 - 456,801
Currently Rebuilding/Restoring

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 24 guests