Steering brake making unusual noise

General help and support for your Lindeman through 2010 John Deere crawler
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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:17 am

Hi,

I have used thin shim stock cut to fit with good success.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
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whiteclipse16
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Post by whiteclipse16 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:20 am

+1 to what Stan said. You'd be surprised how great a pop can doubles as shim stock :lol:
Ben

Great Grandpa's 1960 440ICD 602 blade
Between SN's: 455,633 - 456,801
Currently Rebuilding/Restoring

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Lavoy
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Post by Lavoy » Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:38 am

If the shaft is that badly worn, usually I replace the shaft. Outer bearing portion of the shaft can be knurled, and then use Loctite to ensure it stays.
Most of the time, I think the bearings get loose on the shaft because people have not replaced them in time, and/or there is no preload on the bearings when they are installed.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:03 pm

Thanks guys. Today I've been doing other things and tomorrow I will try to determine how much slop exists between the inner bearing and the shaft and go from there. I suspect it's too great to knurl. There is evidence that in the past one or both of these bearings failed and caused some chewing of the final drive housing on the inside and outside (you can see some of the scoring in one of the pictures). Someone before me fixed these deficiencies, so my challenge seems to be less serious.
I'll be cleaning up parts, re- reading the manual - amazing how some small point becomes significant when read for the umpteenth time in context, and disassembling the various parts as appropriate. Keep you posted. Paul
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:43 pm

Update: I've removed all the steering gear on the right side of my dozer. Happily most of it came apart easily although some needed some heat persuasion. I found that the steering shaft was very worn and required replacement - the keyways were shot and the shaft itself had multiple oval areas which causes looseness and slop. I'll be replacing the brass bushings in a few places and repacking the grease pits where required. I was able to find good replacement parts locally for what I consider a fair price, that will allow me to tighten up the steering system and make real world adjustments - like it says in the manual. Per Lavoy's suggestion, I was able to find a sound pinion shaft replacement which has good bearing and seal lands. The pinion shaft bearings are still good and will be reinstalled. I also picked up an assortment of used quill shims. This lack of wear will allow me to set the bearing pre-loads more accurately. Now I have to get steels and fiber discs, two pilot bearings, two throw out bearings - maybe, and some bushing stock,(enough for both sides), and the clutch setup tool, and I should be set to go for now.
My plan is to get this side set including some undercarriage work on the cross member hold down bolts which are pulling out some of the threads, and then move on to the other side and do the same. Concurrently, I'm having a water pump rebuilt and plan on replacing the existing one which is leaking, along with the radiator - I have an extra radiator that has been boiled and tested.
By summer's end I hope to have a crawler that steers and pushes well, keeps water temps and pressure, and performs as reliably as it has in the past - except better :-)
Thanks again for all the comments and shared experience. I find it all helpful. Paul
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

whiteclipse16
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Post by whiteclipse16 » Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:57 am

Sounds like a pretty decent overhaul that you're doing Paul. Keep posting pics., it makes it very interesting.
Ben

Great Grandpa's 1960 440ICD 602 blade
Between SN's: 455,633 - 456,801
Currently Rebuilding/Restoring

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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:31 pm

Update: After cleaning and freeing up parts, I started the re-assembly with a good minimally worn steering shaft and new bushing in the clutch housing along with a good steering lever (keyway is intact). Internally I freed up all the pins, the allen screw, and the ball socket arm so that things will adjust or come apart as designed. I'm replacing the crank arm bushing as well. I hope to remove as much accumulated wear as possible - piece by piece. I used gray anti-seize and a pot of thick bearing grease as needed to replace old lubricants. In the ball joints I used a little green disc brake grease (high temp, as recommended). It turned out that having the ball joint arm loose is a good thing. All the new parts and tightening required that this arm be re-adjusted, per the manual, to get the quill balls and springs into a relaxed,neutral position. Fiddling with this arm took some patience since I needed to remove it twice to determine why there was a "clicking" in the quill when I reinstalled everything the first time; then I loosened, lubed, and adjusted it properly. Now the system seems to be working within the designed range.
On to re-lining the brake with new lining and rivets, and then I'll be digging into the clutch when the new parts arrive from Lavoy.
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Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:34 pm

Parts arrived today. In the mean time I've been working on the brake band.
Got to say that trying to add pictures in an orderly manner is not easy. This is my third or fourth attempt to do this in what should be a simple process, and I still get anomalies. Any way, Hope these pictures help someone who has never done this either - relining a brake band is not that difficult; posting pictures is more difficult and time consuming. :-)

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Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

JimAnderson
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Progress

Post by JimAnderson » Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:36 pm

Paul,
Looking good,real good!Lots of work but it will be worth it when you are done.Luck,JimAnderson

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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:53 pm

Thanks Jim: Today, after other life's projects, I was able to install the refurbished brake band and set the adjustment loosely. I also installed the new throwout bearing on its mount and made sure that the adjustment bolt and opposing shaft were set properly in the housing - not too deep as to interfere with the required sliding action.
Later I was able to remove the old pilot bearing from the "new" pinion shaft. I installed a new sealed one. I used the wet paper pulp method of getting the old bearing out of its hole after failing with the packed grease method. I like this way a lot - it worked and makes sense. The paper builds up against the ball bearings and the hydraulic pressure drives the bearing out. The grease just oozed through around the bearings after blowing the outside seal. It's also cheaper than buying a puller, although Autozone loans them.
I also installed a new narrow seal which seats on a nice smooth section of the shaft which I cleaned with crocus cloth and kerosene. The old bearings are being reused and I was pleased to see that they needed a light pressing to mount the shaft. I added a bit of Permatex bearing retainer that a friend gave me to keep the bearings from spinning on the shaft (my old worn pinion shaft indicated that this was an issue). I then added the same amount of quill shims as was used previously, replacing the beat up thin one, and tightened the quill cover carefully. The shaft has some end play, and the assembly turns as I'd hope. I'll be borrowing a friends dial gauge and magnetic mount to see if things are within spec. soon, and dial things in at that point and torque the cover bolts as recommended in the manual, then move on to the clutches.

Note the scoring to the final drive in the picture indicating that somewhere in the past a bearing failed making a mess for someone; happily, not me.

I'll be busy for the next week, so the project is going on hold for a while.

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Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:42 pm

Update: Here are some shots of my steering clutch and pressure plate after assembly with new fiber discs, steels, and rebuilt pressure plate from Lavoy:

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Took a few tries to get every thing in place correctly; the original pressure plate bolts had been roughly cut off to shorten them, and weren't long or clean enough to restart all the nuts without cross-threading or a fight because of the spring tension in the pressure plate. I then decided to turn the new replacement bolts around so that the nuts and extra shaft length is on the pressure plate side and exposed rather than trying to get nuts started behind the assembly and possibly having the bolts rub on the housing (I saw this setup had been done on another parts assembly I bought - the manual shows the nuts in the back).

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Here's my question. I bought a pressure plate setup tool, but don't know how to use it. The yellow paint indicates that the rebuilt pressure plate may be preset. There appears to be about 1/8" clearance between the gauge and any of the fingers. I looked through my manual and couldn't find anything specific to the steering clutches on a crawler. Can someone point me in the right direction or offer some thoughts? Thanks. Paul
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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shinnery
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Post by shinnery » Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:47 am

I think that the main thing is that when the bolts are tight all three fingers are the same height.
Lavoy has a thread on the FAQ section about using that gauge, on my computer ist is the fourth stickie down from the top. I am going to try to post a link http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... php?t=1518.
Maybee this will help.
Bryce
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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:09 am

Thanks Bryce. The link works. I knew I had seen this info somewhere. Now I have to decide if I'll re adjust the fingers to gain the 1/8". Any other thoughts?
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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jtrichard
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Post by jtrichard » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:05 am

IF you can get your linkage to adjust to the proper free play AND the clutch releases then it will be fine and will last longer before it losses pressure on the clutch from wear .... BUT an 1/8" on the fingers is a lot and there is a reason they made and use the gauge IF you put it back together and it dont work then PULL it back apart and adjust sounds like a BIG gamble (and a lot work if it wont work) :) :)
2010 with 622 dozer with mod. 35 ripper and a 2010 with 622 dozer bought in 1969 and a 2010 loader with drott and mod. 36 ripper

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Lavoy
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Post by Lavoy » Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:56 pm

Yes technically the pressure plate is set at the factory, but that means nothing. ALL pressure plates installed in a Deere crawler at least as far as the old ones go has to be adjusted once installed. If you are 1/8" down, you are in factory spec if you choose to leave it.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

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