1010 injection pump

nails · Post by **nails** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:20 am

I have a Roosa-Master DBG VC429-3AJ fuel injection pump that isn't working after sitting for a few years. It had fuel in it. My tractor doesn't have any other fuel pump, just gravity feed to the IP.

According to the parts manual, this isn't the stock IP.

I have good air-free flow to the inlet but don't get anything out the banjo bolts. The return line seems unrestricted. The governor gets fuel, but not much with cranking. (I've heard of J-wire issue -- maybe something's partially plugged here?) The fuel tank is pretty full, so fuel runs out the return line to the governor when I open the valve and a bleed screw near the throttle lever.

While cranking, I get fuel dribbles out another apparent bleed screw, also near the throttle lever but to the pump body. I cranked until the tiny bubbles mostly quit.

With the actual fuel line open, I also get dribbles out the "outlet" (top of pump) by gravity and splashes fuel when I crank it.

I've heard of a "pellathane-plastic dampener retainer ring" disintegrating over time, but don't have a clue how to check. I don't see anything with this name in the parts list.

Do I need to continue homage to the purge gods, or is it time to pull and disassemble it?

whiteclipse16 · Post by **whiteclipse16** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:42 am

From my experience so far with our 1010 diesel, they are an absolute pain to bleed the air out. The only way we were able to get the air out was, someone put a rag around the fill neck on the fuel tank and blew into it. This applied a slight pressure to the fuel system. While he blew into the tank I cranked the motor with the starter. It started pumping fuel pretty quickly when we did this. Prior to that it wouldn't seem to bleed the air out of the pump itself.

If that doesn't work you either A: have a small air leak somewhere that you can't see or B: the pump simply needs rebuilt.

Good luck. I'm not a fan of the 1010 fuel system at all.

Tigerhaze · Post by **Tigerhaze** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:16 pm

You need to do a little more troubleshooting before I would pull the IP. I couldn't tell from your discussion if you are actually getting fuel back through the return line to the fuel tank. Is that the case? If not you need to determine if that is a blockage in the return line or tank, or it is happening in the pump?

There is a mechanical fuel shutoff on this pump, but should be open if the throttle lever is raised.

Other causes could be a stuck metering valve in the pump. Read Jdemaris's discussion about halfway down the first page of this link:

http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... g&start=15

The "mouse turds" (pellethane ring disintegration) if present, can be found by opening the timing window on the side of the pump body and observing whether small bits of black plastic are inside.

besides the one above, there are many more threads about injection pumps by Jdemaris. His posts on injection pumps are GOLD- it is harder to search for them now because he is no longer a registered user but if you type in injection pump into the searches you should find many of them. Since I have been involved in a number of them you could also search my username and find many of them.

nails · Post by **nails** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:34 pm

Thank you all very much.

whiteclipse16 wrote:From my experience so far with our 1010 diesel, they are an absolute pain to bleed the air out.

Compared to rebuilding the pump, that's very encouraging. I'll figure out a way to put a little positive pressure at the pump inlet. That's my next step, tomorrow morning.

whiteclipse16 wrote:I'm not a fan of the 1010 fuel system at all.

Maybe I'm not the first to have some remorse about restoring a 1010 or 2010.

Tigerhaze wrote:I couldn't tell from your discussion if you are actually getting fuel back through the return line to the fuel tank.

Yes, but not much. I removed the governor cover and it was full, but it filled slowly with cranking. I refilled it right away by opening the bleed screw and the return line valve. I mean, there might be a clog between the pump and the governor housing, but not to the tank. Maybe it's that J-wire thing I've read about (I didn't see anything like that when I had the cover off). Or maybe it isn't pumping any fuel in the first place, whether to the injectors or return?

Tigerhaze wrote:There is a mechanical fuel shutoff on this pump, but should be open if the throttle lever is raised.

The fuel shutoff is hooked to a dash knob right. And it's pushed forward against its stop.

Tigerhaze wrote:Other causes could be a stuck metering valve in the pump.

I gather I'd need to take it apart to check. I did try a little percussive maintenance already.

Tigerhaze wrote:The "mouse turds" (pellethane ring disintegration) if present, can be found by opening the timing window on the side of the pump body and observing whether small bits of black plastic are inside.

I saw nothing like this. The oil pump shaft was off, and I had to screw with that to even see the timing mark. (Last person apparently just guessed.) And before you ask, #1 really was on compression, not exhaust. The oil pump was about 3 of seven positions off, not 180 degrees off.

More off-topic: I don't really get what the clear window thing is all about. I took off the cover, spilled diesel out it, messed with lining up the marks, and then put the metal cover back on. I've apparently been fighting to get fuel back in there ever since.

Tigerhaze wrote:there are many more threads about injection pumps

Yes, I've read much of that; and thanks for directing me to more. And I recognize your name. This is exactly why I'm posting here ... despite running great risk of being busted for having wheels instead of tracks.

--
Neal

jtrichard · Post by **jtrichard** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:14 am

WHEELS!!! WHEELS!!! WE don't need no stinkin wheels ..... we don't take kindly to YOUR type "round" these parts.... LOL WELCOME to the nut house

nails · Post by **nails** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:13 am

I put fuel in a plastic quart bottle and squeezed it into the inlet as hard as I could with one hand, turning the key with the other. The pump is taking little or no fuel. I'll have to hit those other threads and otherwise get ready to rebuild it, I reckon.

Stan Disbrow · Post by **Stan Disbrow** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:42 am

Hi,

If that is a mechanical fuel cut-off IP, you sure you have the throttle open far enough?

I ask because I have gone to help others with this sort of problem and they have not pushed the throttle open far enough....

Stan

nails · Post by **nails** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:18 am

Stan Disbrow wrote:If that is a mechanical fuel cut-off IP, you sure you have the throttle open far enough?

I don't think it is because there's a separate shutoff valve. That lever is between the IP and block, and it's rotated full forward.

I've been trying at a mid-throttle position. Full open has the throttle lever rotated full-back, right. (I mean, the throttle linkage looks like it's been, um, manipulated.)

I just tried again with the throttle at both ends. The IP might be taking a little fuel (my plastic bottle has graduations), but maybe I'm just spilling that little bit.

Continued thanks! The restoration is basically finished ... if only I could get fuel to start it!

nails · Post by **nails** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:13 pm

$900 "to go through it". Seems steep -- is that the going rate?

Post by **Lavoy** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:50 pm

My two cents.
If there is fuel to the head, it should make pressure. If it does not, it needs to be rebuilt unless I have missed something obvious.
In spite of what a former member on this board says, there is no 10 cent over haul of an injection pump. I had one done by a man I trust explicitly, who has more experience than above mentioned member, and it did not work quite right. Sent the pump to a professional pump rebuild shop, it worked great, at least in part because it was test run on a bench before it was ever sent to me.
$900 is not out of line, I think I have been in the $800 range exchange before. Professional injection pump work has always been expensive so to speak, and in my estimation always will be.
Lavoy

nails · Post by **nails** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:56 pm

Thanks. This shop came highly recommended (Central Motive Power in Albuquerque, NM). I just need to decide whether to put a crowbar in my wallet now or after screwing around with it longer.

Stan Disbrow · Post by **Stan Disbrow** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:44 pm

Hi,

My One Cent (it would be less if we had a smaller coin, because Lavoy used two of them)....

Crowbar your wallet. I have learned (the hard way) to not mess too much with a pump once I know the problem is in the pump. The shops have a DIY upcharge, so it might well cost more than $900 in the end....

I had to pay $1200 twenty years ago on one pump because I tried to DIY it. As in a new pump because I boogered the original too far. But, even then, it would have been $500 if I had just taken the original in. So, $900 now sounds like a deal to me.

Oh, and always use a shop which is equipped to properly test these things off the machine. It costs extra, but is well worth it.

Stan

Edit: more like 25 years ago now.....

nails · Post by **nails** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Continued thanks. I was going to ask whether they bench-test. And I need to check serial numbers. According to the Parts Manual, this isn't stock. It might've gotten swapped with a 2010. At any rate, I'll ask for any difference in the timing marks between this and stock. Maybe I'll finally have this running again next week.
Then to see if the rockshaft actually moves ....

Post by **Lavoy** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:06 am

I would not let anyone without a test bench rebuild any pump for me. Be sure to tell them it is going on a 1010 so they can turn the fuel down to spec. 2010 fueling levels would be an awful lot of smoke!
Lavoy

nails · Post by **nails** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:27 pm

"Nothing moving insides" and "all stuck together".
"Nothing broken" and "we got all the parts on the shelf".
So, $700 instead of $900; and I'll get it back tomorrow.
Also, mine directly superseded the number in the Parts Manual, so I don't have to fuss with funny timing.

When I first put the IP back on the tractor, the timing mark wasn't visible in the window. The oil pump was off 2 cogs, and the (invisible) timing mark pointed toward the front of the tractor. Now that it's back to rights, I suppose I'll need to bump the fuel lines one banjo bolt clockwise (looking down on the installed pump). Does that sound right?

btw, once I had a pickup truck with the frame so bent I sometimes had to look in the mirror to see if I was going to where I thought I was coming from. Kinda like that.

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