Generator

General help and support for your Lindeman through 2010 John Deere crawler
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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:55 am

Hi,

No.

It retains polarization via the iron plates, which form weak permanent magnets. It is these plates which are charged with that magnetic field when the locked armature is energized. That sets the North/South polarity of the plates, which is what makes the electrical polarity when the generator is turning.

Now, what can happen is those plates lose their magnetic field over time from exposure to the Earth's own mag field. Like when a generator sits on a shelf for years.

The reason for the plates is so the thing generates a low current when first started spinning. That feeds back into the field coils via the regulator relay and so the thing is self-exciting. You don't need a battery to make it work, as it would do so on it's own. This came from earlier times when engines used hand starting and magnetos yet they wanted electric lights.

Once everyone had electric starters and so always had a battery, then someone thought about how much more efficient an alternator would be. They do need external voltage present to run their field coils because they don't have permanent magnets inside to kick them off.

Oh, and portable power generators have a permanent magnet 12v generator on the shaft with the big AC alternator. The generator self-excites and then powers the alternator field coils so you do not have to have a battery with it. ;)

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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mapaduke@yahoo.com
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Post by mapaduke@yahoo.com » Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:15 am

Does positive or negative ground make a difference as long as it's polarized?
I will be wireing my MC in a couple weeks, looks like I will need the right ignition switch also.
nothing crawles like a deere

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:47 pm

Hi,

Well, the way the coil is wound, spark would be a bit lower voltage with 6v neg gnd. Ammeter will read backwards, but won't be hurt by that.

The big one is if someone else comes by it and sees 6v batt and presumes pos gnd like they all are....and jumps it. The smoke cloud from the jumper cables would be a sight to see. Especially when they glow red and are too hot to pull off in about 1.5 seconds.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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mapaduke@yahoo.com
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Post by mapaduke@yahoo.com » Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:09 pm

Ok, I will keep it positive ground.
I see that Stiner list a Voltage regulator conversion for the MC but if all I need to do is monitor the Amp gauge and switch between high and low output occasionally I'd rather keep it original.
Thanks Stan you've been very helpful.
nothing crawles like a deere

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:18 pm

Hi,

I use an M wheel tractor still mostly for the mid mount cultivator rig. I made a mod to the back for 3pt and use that for laying down plastic mulch as well as with a spreader.

Anyway, I run high charge for the first 20 minutes or so after starting then switch to low. It has always worked out fine.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:21 am

Sounds like your regulator is stuck on full all the time. They are actually a relay with contact points which can stick. But how in heck does a 6v battery rise to that high with a 20 amp generator even if it is stuck on full??
Been busy, so missed a few of these posts.

Anyway, does it sound like my regulator needs to be replaced? I took off the cover and exercised both sets of contacts, and they didn't appear to be fused, but the right hand set looks a bit burnt. Thanks. Paul
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:49 am

Hi,

The regulator relay coil may be burnt out. As the voltage rises, the corresponding magnetic field from the coil pulls down the contact arm, this then opens the points opening up the feed to the gen field coils.

So, if that does not happen, you will have power to the field coils all the time. That will see the voltage rise. Then, the only regulation will be boiling the water out of the battery. That doesn't work too well.

If so, then yes, replace the regulator unit. I haven't seen a place which can repair these in a long, long time.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:32 am

Thanks Stan. Just need some time to do the checking and follow up from there. I appreciate the information. Paul
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:03 pm

I hope my question/comment isn't viewed as a thread hijacking,but as an extension of this discussion.
I think I'm making progress on my 420's charging problem. I got my rebuilt generator to spin as a motor, telling me that it has continuity internally, but I still wasn't getting an amp reading when hooked up as a generator. After reading a lot of good, but not specific info on generators and voltage regulators, and watching a few long and sometimes boring or inaccurate You Tubes, I was able to determine that the charging circuit wires,grounds, and connections were good on my machine. A friend suggested that I run a jumper between the field terminal and a good ground to bypass the voltage regulator (a test to see if it was the problem). Low and behold, the amp meter registered around 10 amps at a high idle. Yay!
I replaced the new voltage regulator with the used one I had replaced, and now the system is charging, but...
When I put a volt meter on the battery while the dozer is running, I still get very erratic voltage readings, between 8 and 18 volts. I have a digital volt meter and can't get a clean reading. When a battery charger is hooked up in parallel while the dozer is running, the charge indicator on the charger bounces all over the place, but the amp meter stays aligned with the rpms. Any thoughts?
I'm leaning towards getting a second new regulator, but I hate doing "parts swaps" as a diagnosis method unless it's convenient and cheap 😖
Thanks for your thoughts. Paul
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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mapaduke@yahoo.com
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Post by mapaduke@yahoo.com » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:34 am

It doesn't bother me Paul, post away.
This reminds me back in the day when we didn't have test equipment if you disconnect the battery while the engine was running and it stayed running you were good, if it didn't you had a problem. Lol
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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:54 am

Hi,

Sounds like maybe the battery has a sulfation issue with its plates. I just had this happen with a 12v battery in a car. Same symptom, the voltage regulation under charge was wandering from 12.5 v to 17 v and back.

The other symptom was I noticed a slowness with the starter. It went from being OK to being a pain in about three days.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Paul Buhler
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Posts: 991
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: Killington, VT

Post by Paul Buhler » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:27 am

if you disconnect the battery while the engine was running and it stayed running you were good, if it didn't you had a problem. Lol
That was one of the first tests I did. Only thing is, it doesn't identify where in the system the problem exists; just that I had one - which I already knew.

As an aside, I'm a retired math teacher, and I constantly hear "I hate math" from people. What they really mean is that they are uncomfortable using it with confidence. That said, I hate electricity - when I have an issue, it can be torturous to isolate the problem. Case in point - intermittent grounding.

Stan: Any way to check the battery? It holds a charge at just above 6 volts - so far.

Anyway, I'm making progress, and now feel that I'm on the home stretch. Thanks for the shared ideas and support. Paul
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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Lavoy
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Post by Lavoy » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:54 am

Just a comment on the Steiner so called "conversion". As far as I know, it won't work unless you "convert" to a 40 or later generator. I could be wrong, but that is what sticks in my head.
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Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:56 am

Hi,

Stick your meter on while cranking for 10 seconds with ignition off. See how far it drops under load. Ought to not fall below 4 volts. Then, stick your charger on right after. Note the amps it takes and how long until it rises up to 8 volts.

Sulfation is a coating on the battery plates. It inhibits the chemical action in both directions. So, if it is present enough to be a problem, the voltage will drop too low too quickly under load and also rise too high too quickly under charge.

Oh, and electricity is easy. Electronics is a lot tougher. ;)

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Post by Lavoy » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:09 pm

The higher the CCA on the battery the better, and DO NOT USE 4 gauge cables. The starter cable I sell is #1 copper, ground strap is one gauge thicker than you normally can buy, either #2 or #4, I can't remember now. This is referencing voltage drop, not the generator issue.
On the generator, check ALL wires, clean and scuff all grounds, check all connections. I fought one of our own 420's for the longest time. I replaced or rebuilt the entire electrical system. What finally fixed the problem is when I switched to an American made regulator. This is not a condemnation of the imports, or a plug for the American made, just in this one particular instance, that is what worked, I have no idea why. The other 10 or so crawlers sitting there are running import regulators with no problem.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

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