Generator
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mapaduke@yahoo.com
- 1010 crawler
- Posts: 420
- Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:27 pm
- Location: Rochester N.H.
Generator
Do you poleriz a generator the same way if you're using a cutout relay?
nothing crawles like a deere
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Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
Yes.
BTW, they all use cutout relays, otherwise they would try to spin like a motor when you shut the engine off. It is just with some the cutout is by itself and with others they are inside a can with the regulation relay.
Stan
Yes.
BTW, they all use cutout relays, otherwise they would try to spin like a motor when you shut the engine off. It is just with some the cutout is by itself and with others they are inside a can with the regulation relay.
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
I think he means on an MC. MC uses only a cutout, while everything after uses a voltage regulator which has a cutout inside of it is what I am guessing Stan means.
Lavoy
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com
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Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
Right.
With the 3 brush generator, there is just a single relay that closes when the generator starts turning and opens when it stops. That is the cutout. Voltage regulation is set by the position of the 3rd brush, which feeds the field coil inside the generator via the dash switch, which has two positions. One is via a resistor for low charge rate the other straight thru for high charge rate (which is also selected for lights).
Inside the later regulator can are two relays. One opens when the voltage rises and closes when it drops. That is the actual voltage regulator, which is hooked to the field coil in the generator. In effect, it is an automatic method of doing what the switch did on the M. The other relay inside is the cutout which works the same as it does in the 3 brush series: closes when the gen starts turning and opens when it stops. Both are inside the same housing, which is referred to as the voltage regulator.
In any case, all generators are polarized in the same manner regardless of being 2-brush or 3-brush.
Stan
Right.
With the 3 brush generator, there is just a single relay that closes when the generator starts turning and opens when it stops. That is the cutout. Voltage regulation is set by the position of the 3rd brush, which feeds the field coil inside the generator via the dash switch, which has two positions. One is via a resistor for low charge rate the other straight thru for high charge rate (which is also selected for lights).
Inside the later regulator can are two relays. One opens when the voltage rises and closes when it drops. That is the actual voltage regulator, which is hooked to the field coil in the generator. In effect, it is an automatic method of doing what the switch did on the M. The other relay inside is the cutout which works the same as it does in the 3 brush series: closes when the gen starts turning and opens when it stops. Both are inside the same housing, which is referred to as the voltage regulator.
In any case, all generators are polarized in the same manner regardless of being 2-brush or 3-brush.
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
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Paul Buhler
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 991
- Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:25 pm
- Location: Killington, VT
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Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
This is with the generator stopped and locked. If on a tractor, the belt will lock it with the engine not running. If on the bench, hang onto that pulley. It is the magnetic field generated by the locked armature that sets the corresponding mag field into the iron blocks the field coils are wrapped around. If the pulley is not locked, the thing will spin like a motor and repolarization will not occur.
Make up a jumper cable of at least 14ga wire with an alligator clip on one end and long enough to get to the hot lead from the battery.
Hook that clip to the A terminal of the generator. Then, touch the other end to the hot terminal of the battery, and it ought to spark, then remove it. Only need a short time hooked. No more than a second.
On the old iron, the hot side is negative, of course, as the ground is positive.
Works the same for 12v neg ground but now the hot side is going to be positive.
There were some 6v neg gnd out there as well as 12v pos gnd, hence the need to know how to ensure what you found in the barn matches what you sticking in on.
The acid test is to then fire it up. If the ammeter shows positive side, you are good. If it works backwards, time to shut it down and try again. Sometimes they can be stubborn.
Stan
This is with the generator stopped and locked. If on a tractor, the belt will lock it with the engine not running. If on the bench, hang onto that pulley. It is the magnetic field generated by the locked armature that sets the corresponding mag field into the iron blocks the field coils are wrapped around. If the pulley is not locked, the thing will spin like a motor and repolarization will not occur.
Make up a jumper cable of at least 14ga wire with an alligator clip on one end and long enough to get to the hot lead from the battery.
Hook that clip to the A terminal of the generator. Then, touch the other end to the hot terminal of the battery, and it ought to spark, then remove it. Only need a short time hooked. No more than a second.
On the old iron, the hot side is negative, of course, as the ground is positive.
Works the same for 12v neg ground but now the hot side is going to be positive.
There were some 6v neg gnd out there as well as 12v pos gnd, hence the need to know how to ensure what you found in the barn matches what you sticking in on.
The acid test is to then fire it up. If the ammeter shows positive side, you are good. If it works backwards, time to shut it down and try again. Sometimes they can be stubborn.
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
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Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
This is not covered in the machine service manuals, BTW. This was in the engine manual, section 40. Which, most of us do not have. There were other manuals covering all the main sections of all machines for the dealer shop. In this case, all JD 2-cyl engines and associated components.
I looked in my 420 manual first. This is one of those times it does not have anything at all. It says to go to the 40 manual. In the 40 manual, it shows how to remove and install, but not test and repair. For that, go to the engine manual.
It also is not in the M manual, even though there is more info on the vertical engine series than there is in the 40 or 420 manuals.
Stan
This is not covered in the machine service manuals, BTW. This was in the engine manual, section 40. Which, most of us do not have. There were other manuals covering all the main sections of all machines for the dealer shop. In this case, all JD 2-cyl engines and associated components.
I looked in my 420 manual first. This is one of those times it does not have anything at all. It says to go to the 40 manual. In the 40 manual, it shows how to remove and install, but not test and repair. For that, go to the engine manual.
It also is not in the M manual, even though there is more info on the vertical engine series than there is in the 40 or 420 manuals.
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
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Paul Buhler
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 991
- Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:25 pm
- Location: Killington, VT
Thanks. since it's convenient, can the "sparking" be done between the A terminal and the starter battery cable connection as well? Thanks.
I recently replaced the battery on my 6 v pos. ground crawler. My amp meter has not been registering positive when the dozer is running, but show a draw when the lights are on. A volt meter shows a bit greater than 6v at the battery when not running, and fluctuates wildly between 14 and 18 v when running, so I thought I should try repolarizing. Always open to suggestions. Thanks. Paul
I recently replaced the battery on my 6 v pos. ground crawler. My amp meter has not been registering positive when the dozer is running, but show a draw when the lights are on. A volt meter shows a bit greater than 6v at the battery when not running, and fluctuates wildly between 14 and 18 v when running, so I thought I should try repolarizing. Always open to suggestions. Thanks. Paul
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch
STAN ???? oldtimers again? lol YOU should NEVER "spark" on or near a battery ...BOOM... Clip on battery first then hit the A terminal CORRECT???Hook that clip to the A terminal of the generator. Then, touch the other end to the hot terminal of the battery, and it ought to spark, then remove it. Only need a short time hooked. No more than a second.
2010 with 622 dozer with mod. 35 ripper and a 2010 with 622 dozer bought in 1969 and a 2010 loader with drott and mod. 36 ripper
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Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
Nope. You must make certain the connection is solid at the A terminal. Hence the alligator clip. So sparking at the battery terminal is necessary. It isn't a hot spark anyway. Too low a voltage coupled with too low a current to be hot.
Not a worry. Only a rapidly charging battery is going to produce enough H2 and O2 gas to collect in the battery space under the top. And, doing this, no charging is occuring so it isn't being pushed out the vent holes anyway.
Now, jumper cables are another story. Thousands of amps surge so the dead battery will produce much gas quickly. And, it is the spark when you break that connection which touches off the boom, not the one hooking it up.
And, yes. The starter terminal will do as well as the battery terminal, which is a lot easier to access on these machines. But the instruction is general to cover whatever has a generator.
Oh, and the only time I had batteries go boom was inside the basement of the house sitting on boards on the floor hooked to a maintainer supply. A lightning strike just outside made sparks fly all throughout the house and some under the tops of the batteries. The extent of the boom was to crack the tops. So, not much of a boom. Mosly an acid leak onto the floor.
There is just not enough gas collection area inside them to do much by way of booming. It is the acid spray you have to worry about.
Now, a short across the terminals, that is much worse. The battery becomes a ball of fire which cannot be put out with any extinguisher or hose stream. You know like the one that happens on these old machines with the steel gas tank a half inch above?
Worry about that and not the spark near a small amount of H2 and O2 gas....
One could always make up two wires with a push button switch in the middle and clips on both ends.
Stan
Nope. You must make certain the connection is solid at the A terminal. Hence the alligator clip. So sparking at the battery terminal is necessary. It isn't a hot spark anyway. Too low a voltage coupled with too low a current to be hot.
Not a worry. Only a rapidly charging battery is going to produce enough H2 and O2 gas to collect in the battery space under the top. And, doing this, no charging is occuring so it isn't being pushed out the vent holes anyway.
Now, jumper cables are another story. Thousands of amps surge so the dead battery will produce much gas quickly. And, it is the spark when you break that connection which touches off the boom, not the one hooking it up.
And, yes. The starter terminal will do as well as the battery terminal, which is a lot easier to access on these machines. But the instruction is general to cover whatever has a generator.
Oh, and the only time I had batteries go boom was inside the basement of the house sitting on boards on the floor hooked to a maintainer supply. A lightning strike just outside made sparks fly all throughout the house and some under the tops of the batteries. The extent of the boom was to crack the tops. So, not much of a boom. Mosly an acid leak onto the floor.
There is just not enough gas collection area inside them to do much by way of booming. It is the acid spray you have to worry about.
Now, a short across the terminals, that is much worse. The battery becomes a ball of fire which cannot be put out with any extinguisher or hose stream. You know like the one that happens on these old machines with the steel gas tank a half inch above?
Worry about that and not the spark near a small amount of H2 and O2 gas....
One could always make up two wires with a push button switch in the middle and clips on both ends.
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Years ago on my 2010 second battery in box on back of seat coming down a hill my dad was standing on draw bar guide with his hands on seat back (face just above the battery) and me operating just as he stepped off the battery blew ...took the whole top off acid on both of us.....seen a few in cars that did the same
2010 with 622 dozer with mod. 35 ripper and a 2010 with 622 dozer bought in 1969 and a 2010 loader with drott and mod. 36 ripper
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Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,Paul Buhler wrote:Thanks. since it's convenient, can the "sparking" be done between the A terminal and the starter battery cable connection as well? Thanks.
I recently replaced the battery on my 6 v pos. ground crawler. My amp meter has not been registering positive when the dozer is running, but show a draw when the lights are on. A volt meter shows a bit greater than 6v at the battery when not running, and fluctuates wildly between 14 and 18 v when running, so I thought I should try repolarizing. Always open to suggestions. Thanks. Paul
Sounds like your regulator is stuck on full all the time. They are actually a relay with contact points which can stick. But how in heck does a 6v battery rise to that high with a 20 amp generator even if it is stuck on full??
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
-
Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
In thinking on Paul's problem, it dawned on me where they stuck the regulator on these old girls. Right next to the aft end of the battery.
And, the regulator relay contacts spark every time the open or close, which is about 2 or 3 times a second once the generator has caught the battery back up after a start.....
Well, it is in a can, and H2 is way lighter than air, and that battery box while it looks tightly enclosed, really isn't. But, thinking on sparks near batteries gassing during charging, that does sound like a bad place for a regulator.
Stan
In thinking on Paul's problem, it dawned on me where they stuck the regulator on these old girls. Right next to the aft end of the battery.
And, the regulator relay contacts spark every time the open or close, which is about 2 or 3 times a second once the generator has caught the battery back up after a start.....
Well, it is in a can, and H2 is way lighter than air, and that battery box while it looks tightly enclosed, really isn't. But, thinking on sparks near batteries gassing during charging, that does sound like a bad place for a regulator.
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
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Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,jtrichard wrote:Years ago on my 2010 second battery in box on back of seat coming down a hill my dad was standing on draw bar guide with his hands on seat back (face just above the battery) and me operating just as he stepped off the battery blew ...took the whole top off acid on both of us.....seen a few in cars that did the same
The cells inside the battery are bridged with lead straps. Used to be they were on top of the lid. Now they are internal. Lead likes to crack pretty easily. So, if that happens and the batt is under charge, they spark inside right where there is plenty of gas.....
Later on, we can change over to talking about what fun those Lithium Ion batteries we all carry in our pockets like to have. They even have a small computer inside them the try keeping them from going wrong, yet once in a while they do anyway. I carry mine in a belt holster so if it goes poof, I don't get a burn from it.
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
-
mapaduke@yahoo.com
- 1010 crawler
- Posts: 420
- Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:27 pm
- Location: Rochester N.H.
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