Hydraulic PTO for a 420

Roger440IC · Post by **Roger440IC** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:33 pm

Has anyone ever hooked up a hydraulic motor-PTO on a 420 or a 440?

I'd like to run a 5' snow blower on my 420u wheel tractor that has a Wagner loader and an 18 gpm front mounted hydraulic pump. The tractor doesn't have a live PTO and I saw some hydraulic motor/PTO's that I think might work. I'm not sure if the 420 would have enough power.

I know this isn't really a crawler question but if works I could also hook this up to my 440 to run a few of my PTO implements.

Thanks,
Roger

gregjo1948 · Post by **gregjo1948** » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:26 am

If you're going to run the pto off the front pump, you should check the specs on the pto to see if the pump is sufficient. You may not be able to operate the loader and pto at the same time. In that case, you'd want to install a transfer valve to switch from one to the other. The tractor should have plenty enough power to operate the pto because it's already running the pump to operate the loader.

Stan Disbrow · Post by **Stan Disbrow** » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:55 am

Hi,

I would think that the original pump will not be enough. So, I would be thinking about adding another pump to the 420 PTO shaft.

Stan

Roger440IC · Post by **Roger440IC** » Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:33 pm

I found a PTO drive motor at Surplus Center that seems to match the pressure and flowrate of my pump but I'd like to make sure the tractor has enough power to run the blower and still drive up the switchbacks on the road.
I've seen belt and drawbar horsepower ratings for the 420/440 engine that are in the 26 to 29 range. Do you know what the rated flywheel HP is for the engine?

doc40c · Post by **doc40c** » Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:37 pm

Hi, Stan did you just get up from your nap? He doesn't have a pto shaft. That's why he wants to go to a hydraulic pto. At least I think that is what he is asking in his post. Good luck on your project! Randy from Michigan.

Stan Disbrow · Post by **Stan Disbrow** » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:19 pm

Hi,

Actually, I could *use* a nap!

Never mind me, I have been half asleep lately....

Stan

Roger440IC · Post by **Roger440IC** » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:42 pm

I do have a PTO on my 420U but it's not live and I don't have a PTO at all on my 440ic . My primary purpose on the wheel tractor is to run the snowblower, brush hog, etc. where I can spool these up before the tractor starts moving. If I run the pump off the PTO then I won't have any pressure until the tractor starts moving so I haven't gained anything.
I agree that the stock/internal hydraulic pump on the tractor probably isn't enough to drive the PTO implements but I have an external 18 gpm pump that's connected to the front of the crankshaft which powers my loader and a remote. This pump set-up works fine for the loader and remote but I'm not sure how it would work with the PTO pump driving the implements constantly.

gregjo1948 · Post by **gregjo1948** » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:49 am

You should remember that 26-29 hp form these tractors has a lot more power than the same rated 2 cylinder Briggs&Stratton. You never mentioned if the blower is front or rear mounted. If you're lifting it with the 3 point hitch, the front pump should work fine, as long as, the pto specs are within the pump perimeters. The weight of the snow and the grade of the driveway will determine your ground speed and which gear you'll need to choose.

Post by **Lavoy** » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:46 am

In addition to everything else, you will need a high volume flow control valve and a whopper of a hyd oil cooler. I think when all is said and done, you will be quite disappointed in the performance overall with lack of power, speed fluctuations, and such. Also, your loader may have an 18GPM pump, but it is in all likelihood a 1500 PSI or less system when new. That pressure and flow will not develop a lot of HP driving a hyd motor. And if the increased load wrecks that pump, replacements are in the $1000 range for that exact pump style.
420 is 30 flywheel HP.
By the time you are done buying stuff for the 420, you are probably close to the price of a 3PT and PTO for the 440, that would be another avenue.
Lavoy

Roger440IC · Post by **Roger440IC** » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:23 pm

Lavoy,
If I were to get a pump and motor that were matched and add a 15 gal reservoir to the 5 or so gallons contained in the Wagner loader do you think the engine would have enough power? We're at 2,200 ft and the mile+ dirt road has two pretty steep switchbacks so I'll still need some wheel power.
I'd prefer not to tie up the 440 with the snowblower since it's my go to machine when the snow is heavy and or deep and I need to push the banks back. (or pull out other vehicles that get stuck)
The ideal solution would be to convert the 420 to a live PTO but I heard that it would require a different transmission in addition to the clutch/housing upgrade.
Thanks,
Roger

Post by **Lavoy** » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:29 pm

The tractor itself at 25PTO hp will just barely run a 5 foot blower in any sort of deep or heavy snow. Add in all the loss that will occur with doing the same thing hydraulically and then having to move 5000 lbs of tractor up the hill, I just think you will have spent a lot of money for a disappointing outcome. I would spend the money on a v-twin air-cooled engine and mount it on the blower first. I know a guy that is doing this on a 420C right now with a 5 foot blower in terrible conditions, and it is working great. Then you still have infinite ground speed, "live" pto, and you can switch to any tractor, PTO or not.
Lavoy

Roger440IC · Post by **Roger440IC** » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:54 pm

Lavoy,
It didn't seem like the 420/440 engine had quite enough power to go around but I was hoping it did. Thanks for saving me from the expense and disappointment!
The dedicated engine sounds like a good solution. Do you happen to have any info or photos of the guy's set-up who has the 420c?
Roger

Post by **Lavoy** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:50 pm

No, never had any pics. He is carrying the blower on the front of the crawler, mounted to the blade frame, but concept is the same. He started with a 22 HP v-twin, but I think he went to a 32HP now. He is in terrible conditions, wind blown snow, blowing out a ditch sometimes 15 feet straight down in a slot. For normal driveway use you wouldn't need as much power, and would save money on the engine. He just took the PTO shaft off, and got a pulley with PTO splines in it to go right on the input shaft of the blower. I think he put a belt tightener to make it easier to start the engine, and ran an auxiliary fuel line to the fuel tank, but you could use a dedicated tank on the blower.
Lavoy

Roger440IC · Post by **Roger440IC** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:03 pm

Thanks Lavoy. The belt and pulley system sounds like a good way to go. Those gear reducers for 25 hp motors are pricey.
Roger

Post by **Lavoy** » Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:27 am

Oh yeah, they are proud of them.
Laovy

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