1010 engine issue

robk · Post by **robk** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:46 pm

I just drained a quart of bright green antifreeze from my 1010 loader that's been sitting in my yard for a couple years. It was pure antifreeze before a hint of motor oil showed up in the stream from the drain plug hole. This is (was) a beautiful motor that starts, runs and has great oil pressure, doesn't smoke... it also has the 24 volt starter circuit so it's been noticeably easier when cold starting. SO! How do I figure out if I have:
1. Bad head gasket
2. Bad sleeve O-rings
3. Cracked block
? 4. Something else I haven't thought of????

jtrichard · Post by **jtrichard** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:59 pm

I had the same thing on my 2010 (same basic engine as 1010) when i first got it (Most likely the sleeve seals) I drained the antifreeze out of the OIL pan and got a big can of barsleak dumped in the radiator that was 4 years ago none since then

robk · Post by **robk** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:19 pm

heehee I love it... HOW BIG a can of Barsleak? I think it only comes in quarts?

jtrichard · Post by **jtrichard** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:41 pm

Looks like it comes in 11 and 16 OZ

robk · Post by **robk** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:16 am

Now I need to figure out why the 24V starter doesn't work. I can hear the so-called "series parallel switch" relay clicking loudly but starter doesn't turn. I have confirmed that there IS power to the starter UNTIL the relay clicks. Then there is no power. I can't find anything on this site about how it's supposed to work - at least when I search for "24 volt". There is plenty about simplifying this old technology with 12V starter and a big battery. My JD service manual says nothing about how it's supposed to work, other than a wiring diagram. Since there is no power to the starter when the key is in START position, I assume it's the "series parallel switch" relay, which many authorities here have pronounced a pain in the tookus.

Stan Disbrow · Post by **Stan Disbrow** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:46 am

Hi,

Are we talking about what I call the 4010 system, where there are two 12v batteries in parallel normally, but there are contactors (the term for really big relays which handle high currents) that change the connections of the batteries into a series connection only for working the starter motor?

This system likes to fry the internals of the contactors and tends to require frequent replacements. Usually, the repair is to replace the contactors.

You can tell if there are fried contacts inside the contactors by using a voltmeter at the starter. Pull the hot lead and see if you get 24v when engaging the system. Then, try with it connected. If you lose power when the starter is connected, and the cable isn't heating up, then there is a bad contact which can no longer pass current.

Back in the day, the tendency was to put on a 24v generator or alternator and permanently wire the two batteries in series. The 12v stuff was hooked to the battery which was also hooked to ground.

Later on, the tendency was to replace the 24v starter with a 12v one. And go to a parallel battery system.

I don't know if the contactors are even available these days.

Stan

Edit: This system isn't a Pain in the Tookus....it is a *Royal* Pain in the Tookus. At least this is what I recall from back when the family had our service shops.....

robk · Post by **robk** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:03 am

If you say ROYAL, I take that seriously! When you say "Pull the hot lead and see if you get 24v...", do you mean pull it at the relay, which is easy, or for some reason pull it off at the starter? I don't think it would make any difference which end I test. Thanks Stan!

jtrichard · Post by **jtrichard** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:14 am

Stan Disbrow wrote:Hi,

I don't know if the contactors are even available these days.

Stan

Edit: This system isn't a Pain in the Tookus....it is a *Royal* Pain in the Tookus. At least this is what I recall from back when the family had our service shops.....

You mean like this one
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/3611036966 ... noapp=true

here is another
http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/ ... switch.asp

Stan Disbrow · Post by **Stan Disbrow** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:48 am

robk wrote:If you say ROYAL, I take that seriously! When you say "Pull the hot lead and see if you get 24v...", do you mean pull it at the relay, which is easy, or for some reason pull it off at the starter? I don't think it would make any difference which end I test. Thanks Stan!

Hi,

Pull it at the starter. If you get 24v there without the load pulling it down, then you know all the cables and bits are still connected. Then the troubleshooting would be to figure out if there is a fault under load in the path to the starter, or in the starter itself.

I don't know the specifics of just where they stuck everything on the 1010 and so am figuring the end of the cable at the starter is easier to get to.

Of course, if there isn't 24v without the load you know which way to shoot from there.

I just had to shoot out a starter fault which wound up being a bad field coil in the starter overloading the battery and the cables. It looked like it wasn't in the starter the way it acted....

Another good way to shoot this sort of thing is look for where the hottest spot in the path is. Presuming the starter is OK, which you can check with two batteries manually hooked in series with two spare cables to manually connect up to the starter. If that cranks, you know the starter is ok.

So, beginning by unhooking at the starter will allow three tests at one time.

Stan

jtrichard · Post by **jtrichard** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:18 am

Stan 1010 and 2010 it is almost impossible to get to the batt lead on the starter I would check voltage at the series parallel switch on the cable that goes to the starter and if you dont have 24 there you wont have it at the starter IF you have 24 then move to the starter IF you dont then move towards Batteries

Stan Disbrow · Post by **Stan Disbrow** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:12 am

Hi,

Is it easier to get to the other end of the final cable to the starter?

It has to be checked for terminal issues and also for copper crystallization. If one can get to the source end, then one could attach known-good batteries to it. That would check both the starter and that cable.....

I am suffering from knowing how these things go, but on the other hand I went from 420 to 350 and back, both of which are pretty easy access....

Stan

mini kahuna · Post by **mini kahuna** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:53 am

the sleeve o rings will shrink and dry out, sitting for long periods of time with often cause marginal seals to just start leaking.
fresh oil and running may get the o ring seals swollen back up again, but most likely anti freeze will continue to leak in and running it will result in destroyed bearings and scored crank journals.
replacing the cylinder deck o rings, deck gasket and head gasket is a lot of work but it is better than a complete rebuild.
sorry for the bad news.

robk · Post by **robk** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:09 pm

Professor Stan is correct (as he usually is) in his last post "attach known-good batteries". After a day spent trying simple fixes, including pulling the entire relay off to bench test it (it worked fine), I decided to waste my time draw testing the batteries, which I use on my other 1010 in spite of how silly Professor Lavoy thinks two batteries are now-a-days... well one of mine was totally shot. I did clean and put conductive grease on all my terminals but the bottom line is: once I actually HAD 24 volts on it, the thing fired right up. !!!! I hate to display my ignorance for all to see but maybe this will inspire others on this unique site to doubt your simplest assumptions. Lavoy has told us over and over that ONE good modern battery can easily do the work of two from the sixties IF your machine is working properly.

Stan Disbrow · Post by **Stan Disbrow** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:03 am

Hi,

Professor? Hardly!

However, an electrical engineer for which you'd think old crawler systems would be an eyes-closed sort of thing. But, you'd not think so if you'd watched me with that 420 starter a few months ago....

Went thru checking everything, decided issue was in the starter, had it rebuilt, and it still wouldn't turn over against compression. Had to do it all again, and finally tried using a 12v battery and finally had cable heating to point me right back at the starter.

Poking into the guts of the starter myself, found one of the field coils has an internal short. So, it draws way too much current yet produces way too little magnetic field.

At that point, I went for another starter. At least I now have a new armature, brush plate, brushes and bendix as spare parts.....

I went thru the whole check battery, check cables, change battery, change cables routine. Twice. Fortunately, I have the M right there for my known-good parts source and also as a test bed. But.....the starters are not swappable so, of course, guess which part was destined to be the bad one??

During the troubleshooting phase, I had multiple meters and even an oscilloscope out in the barn trying to get to the bottom of it all. And, now I have picked up a high-current clamp-on current meter which can show me all those amps. That is better than using heat in the cables to guess.

Stan

Edit: And I see now where the charging has quit. I don't even want to begin on that one!

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