pulling power of the crawler

General help and support for your Lindeman through 2010 John Deere crawler
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pulling power of the crawler

Post by pop pop » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:01 pm

i was at an antique tractor pull today and while watching they were announcing % of pulling power. for instance, an "A" with nice rubber had a 186% pull.
got to wondering what a 440 or 420 would do,,,
440icd/602/8a,,440icd/831/ripper,,440icd/831/3pt.,misc. 440 parts, i have 5 of these now, but i can stop anytime :cry:

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gregjo1948
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Post by gregjo1948 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:03 am

I don't understand the%.
JD 350B diesel 6way blade, Case 580B Loader/backhoe, Farmall 504 high crop w/ flail boom mower, International 404 , International 284 diesel w/belly mower, 1972 Ford F600 dump truck, Galion 3-5 roller, Allis Chalmers D17, 1620 Ford

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CuttingEdge
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Post by CuttingEdge » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:49 am

That is interesting, but I am unsure of how they generated their percentages. In accounting there is a saying that "there is nothing simple about percentages", and it is true!

What they are really giving you over the PA system is (or should be) drawbar pull, which is hard to calculate outside of controlled conditions. Because the percentages are so high, I would say they might be expressing tractive force which is rather misleading because that expresses what theoretically the machine can do coming out of the engine. Drawbar pull is a lot lower number because it IS what the machine can do taking into account slip percentages, power rob of the drive train, and other factors.

In my situation, as a farmer with a bulldozer I have a difficult time obtaining the optimum drawbar pull from my bulldozer, and this is one major reason that caused the demise of the small agricultural crawler I believe. That is because farm implements are sized for tractors and not dozers. The implements I have left over from our era of potato farming (1838-1988) are too small. I can pull far bigger equipment with my dozer because of its traction (increased drawbar pull), but anything of size mush have hydraulics to fold the equipment to transportable size, which my dozer lacks. And of course at 43 HP, it lacks the ability to power anything of size for pto. That is why much of the time my farm work goes to a small Kubota, it matches the implements we have on hand to farm work nicely. I could use a much bigger tractor as I farm quite a few acres, BUT then I would have to upgrade all my implements to match it, many of which are horse-converted implements; that is cost prohibitive.

This was also an issue on the railroad when I worked there. Dispatchers would work with Power Control to provide locomotives with power and braking for the string of cars it was pulling, but theoretical and operating a consist in Kentucky with 4 back to back curves on a 1-1/2% grade with 4 greasers in those curves, is another thing altogether!! Many times it would cause you to "pucker up" trying to negotiate grades!!

As I said, I am not sure where their percentage was derived, but a quick assessment is to calculate the ratio of weight to drawbar pull to get an idea of what a machine can do. I use this a lot because I rent equipment and need to calculate what it can do based on price and availability (comparing say a John Deere 700 dozer at $2000/week versus a John Deere 850 at $3000/week. The basic premise is, the more weight holding it to the ground, the more work that can be done. According to my calculations, a 420 is pretty high due to the weight to drawbar pull ratio. Percentage wise it is higher than my 350D. I am not about to give up my 350D for a 420 because of a host of other factors, but strictly weight to work wise, it is better.

John Deere 420
Weight: 4150
Drawbar Pull: 4862
Pulling percentage=117%

John Deere 350D
Weight: 10,200
Drawbar Pull: 9000
Pulling percentage=88%

Now not to be argumentative, and while countertuitive, nearly bald tractor tires on the tractor on the pulling circuit actually allows for better pulls. As farmers we are often asked by area tractor pullers for our old tires for this reason. That is because unlike in the field where conditions can be soft, the pulling track is hard and compacted, and a big lug would actually work against them. A nearly bald tire presses harder upon the track surface because of more surface contact, and a big lug would pull more dirt from the track and deposit it behind the pulling skid plate which in essence "trigs" it resulting in more friction. Running the proper tire pressure, running the right line down the track, and compaction by the grounds crew are what make or break a pull.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Post by gregjo1948 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:01 am

Thanks, CuttingEdge, for the schooling on %.
JD 350B diesel 6way blade, Case 580B Loader/backhoe, Farmall 504 high crop w/ flail boom mower, International 404 , International 284 diesel w/belly mower, 1972 Ford F600 dump truck, Galion 3-5 roller, Allis Chalmers D17, 1620 Ford

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Post by pop pop » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:34 am

the gal riding on/operating the sled was announcing the results over the PA system with tractor info and length of pull then the %.
that was pretty neat.
track was not hard so good rubber made the difference.
bigger pullers were JD730, IH760.
mostly 15 to 50 hp tractors, remember this was an antique pull.
alot of guys were taking it easy with their stuff too.
the JD A did so well i think because its rated about 30HP and weighs about 4,000 lbs.
its claimed drawbar HP is 18.
interestingly its 2 cyl. has a displacment of 5.1L or 309ci.
at a weight of #3783.
found this info on tractordata.com
im going to poke around on there some more.

:shock: :D :) :o 8) :lol: :P :wink:
440icd/602/8a,,440icd/831/ripper,,440icd/831/3pt.,misc. 440 parts, i have 5 of these now, but i can stop anytime :cry:

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Post by CuttingEdge » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:17 pm

Pop Pop I think you might be getting Drawbar HP and Drawbar Pull mixed up, the two are two completely unrelated things.

There was a very brief period of time when steam tractors were rated in real world horse power; that is when they said it was 8 horse power, it LITERALLY could do the work of an 8 horse team because back then they were trying to sell tractors to farmers who used horses. They needed to compare them, but as the defined horsepower rating came into wide spread use, PTO and Drawbar horsepower were given in engineering and not literal terms.

Drawbar Pull is always expressed in pounds. That means I can theoretically pull 1-1/2 cord of hardwood (5400 pounds per cord green). But this is under ideal conditions. In the woods where I have to contend with adverse grades, stumps, rocks and roots it is far less. I average about a cord per twitch which is about 2/3 of my rated drawbar pull.

But real world experience has found that using 3/8 inch cable (rated at 12,000 breaking strength), may or may not hold up, where as 1/2 inch cable (21000 breaking strength) causes me to spin out before breaking it

Because I clear a lot of land, at some point I want to build a concrete drag to go behind my dozer to help smooth, firm and grade soil and knowing my drawbar pull allows me to figure out just how big of a drag I can build (6000 pounds, or about two cubic yards of concrete).

But keep in mind, bulldozers, because they were designed to push soil, are always rated in cubic yards.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Post by Lavoy » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:34 pm

Something is odd. I have pulled many times on a percentage of pull sled. If you weigh 4000lbs, and pull 4,000 lbs, you pulled 100%. Used to be tractors would be in the 70% or so from what I remember, maybe higher. With the crawlers, we were able to get past 100% in the track conditions we had.
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Post by pop pop » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:57 pm

it is confusing , sorta why i threw it out there.
i would have thought the same as Lavoy's post,
another bit of info,,,that website also rates the 420c, 430c.
but then ya have to consider the crawlers and pushing is supposedly more than pulling???
in the tests they only use drawbar pull to rate them.
:?: in that case maybe crawlers that push cannot equally be compared.
i'm starting to think the(performance stated as a % called out),
is a really a power(work done) to weight and maybe factored with rated HP???
hence the A at 186%........ :roll: :shock: :?: :? :?
going to have to go to another one of these shows.

postnote,
here is a simple definition of their pull rating on their website,
percentage score is based on the weight of the tractor and the weight it pulls on the sled. :shock:
ha, shoulda looked sooner, oh well, thanks for the replies, kept your fingers limber anyways. :lol:
440icd/602/8a,,440icd/831/ripper,,440icd/831/3pt.,misc. 440 parts, i have 5 of these now, but i can stop anytime :cry:

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Post by mapaduke@yahoo.com » Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:53 pm

I pulled around 6,000lbs on a stone boat with a 430 crawler with no blade once. Could have pulled more but broke loose where the wheel tractors were. If it was compacted I think I could have done better.
nothing crawles like a deere

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Post by HebbertHynes » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:17 pm

Hello everybody,
Have to Chime In on this One,I very much like and agree with Lavoy's comments, and also find it very entertaining on affectivity of draw bar %,%, I grew up in a small Newfoundland town in Canada of John Deere owners of several 420 and 430 Crawlers for many usages, Hauling logs,sawing logs Via PTO , pushing sawdust & slabs from Sawmill, Hauling Lumber to the homesteads, Clearing Land ,Digging basements for new home constructions,pushing & hauling Sea boats in and out of water for every Fishing Seasons, moving/towing Various size Small house's & Sheds,plus many other Usages to to mention!!!! But I always rememember as growing up Hearing the Elders and Young folk Saying Them Little Things are Worth there Weight In GOLD$$$$$$
ALL THE BEST
Hebbert Hynes
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Post by Lavoy » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:27 am

I think a possible answer may be type of sled. We pulled a pounds gauge tied between the pulling tractor and a dead man tractor. The dead man tractor was always way bigger than the pulling tractor to ensure it could stop it. I have seen pics of 420 crawlers pulling what to me would look like tens of thousands of pounds of wood on sleighs when they were production logging with these little crawler. That would be many times the weight of the crawler, so obviously friction would come into play there, and your percentage of pull would be a very big multiple of the crawler's weight.
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Post by gregjo1948 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:35 am

When measuring the pull power of these dozers or tractors, is the height of the drawbar level to the object being pulled? Just as the surface the machines are riding on, if the drawbar is pulling up or down, in relationship to the object being pulled, the amount of traction would be altered.
JD 350B diesel 6way blade, Case 580B Loader/backhoe, Farmall 504 high crop w/ flail boom mower, International 404 , International 284 diesel w/belly mower, 1972 Ford F600 dump truck, Galion 3-5 roller, Allis Chalmers D17, 1620 Ford

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