420c Reverser quesitons

gschrader · Post by **gschrader** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:55 am

Good morning,
I am new to the crawler world and made my first purchase a few weeks ago. I purchased 1958 420 from the original owner and found just 8 miles from my home! It sat in a barn for many years, but was started every spring to keep it freed up and was taken very good care of. It runs very well as was in need of the regular maintenance type work and the undercarriage appears to have life left in it. I bought for light use around my farm light grading and brush work.
The issue is the reverser works in forward and not in reverse and the owner told me that when I bought it. It works fine in all forward gears and reverse with no noise. The reverser does lock in reverse but nothing happens when you let the clutch out. I checked the oil in the reverser unit and it appeared to be low. So I fill 3/4 of an inch from the bottom of the hole as instructed (about 2 quarts) closed it back up and ran it a bit. There was a significant leak from the end of the shaft around the o rings that into the housing and need to be replaced. Can this be done by removing the side cover and is there any tricks to getting the shaft out and getting these o rings pit back in place? Also, will I damage the reverser any more by just running it in forward? I am waiting on my service manual to come and wanted to get a jump on this. Thanks for your help!
Gordon

Stan Disbrow · Post by **Stan Disbrow** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:07 am

Hi,

58 ought to be the differential style reverser. They are not covered in the 420 service manual. You need the manual for the 440 gas for that.

You can run with the reverser in forward and use the trans to back up. Other than the adjustments, you have to pull the reverser to perform any work on it. That means yanking the engine first.

Stan

Post by **Lavoy** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:00 pm

In all likely hood the previous owner has been using the reverser without depressing the clutch pedal first and has stripped the reverse clutch pack clutch discs.
Lvaoy

gschrader · Post by **gschrader** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:26 am

Thanks for your help Stan and Lavoy!
The reverser shaft that goes in the housing, according to diagrams there looks to be two seals back to back outside of the housing that seals in oil and keeps dirt out. This is the source of my leak. Would I be able to get those seals out and replace without have to pull the side housing and shaft? I was thinking I could disconnect the lever, get the old seals out and put the new ones in? I would like to get this sealed so it can hold fluid to avoid any other damage until I can opened it up to get to the clutches etc.

Lavoy, based on your knowledge and what you have seen, will replacing the clutch pack discs would most likely resolve the issue or could there be other potential problems inside? Just trying to learn what I may be up against here.
Thanks again for your insights!
Gordon

Post by **Lavoy** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:34 pm

If you tear it apart, you will check everything else in there of course, bit as far as no drive issue, almost always the result of damaged discs due to improper operation.
Lavoy

pop pop · Post by **pop pop** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:08 pm

welcome to the forum GSchrader, well that was not the answer you were hoping for, but there is no sugarcoating to a reverser problem,
the good news would be,,,this is pretty easy to understand once you have it completely torn apart, it just takes a whole lot of time.

where abouts are you located? how did you come across this machine?
you will find this forum is GOLDEN.

dtoots1 · Post by **dtoots1** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:53 pm

Just out of curiosity...would reverser out of different series work...ie...jd420 vs jd40 or vs jd440?? sure everyone would like to know.

gschrader · Post by **gschrader** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:44 pm

Thanks for the insights Lavoy! Pop Pop, This IS a wonderful site and I have already referenced several times. I live in Northern Finger Lakes region of New York State about 30 minutes from Canandaigua where the Expo is held. I love Debuque tractors and have a nice M. I had been searching for a nice crawler for several months all across the country to use on my farm for light work and was hoping to find something decent and not abused. But there is not a lot out there. A few weeks ago a good friend of mine were talking and I told him I was looking for a nice old crawler. He said, " my father in law has one in his barn 10 minutes away that he would probably sell. Holy Cow! So the following week I went to take a look and I fell in love. The owner is 90 years old and bought it new. It was his pride and joy and was very attached. I told him to come by anytime and take it out for a spin when he wanted. He told me he would like come and see it. It was well maintained, all original and the tine was as straight as an arrow. Even had the original 420 and 430 operators guides. We hooked up the new battery put some fresh gas in it and it started right up. The transmission and steering clutches all work, it has great oil pressure and ran great. Just needs some tlc that is being applied now. Not sure if I will do a complete restoration or leave it in its work clothes but cant wait to get it out and do a little work with it. I am hooked! I am sure I will be asking for lots of direction when I get stuck!! Again thanks for the help!!

gschrader · Post by **gschrader** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:54 pm

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Here it is. Let me know how you think I did.
Thanks! Gordon

pop pop · Post by **pop pop** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:06 pm

as for interchangability, the (later)420 and 440 will interchange, all the others are machine specific.
i should know this,,,well i mean remember this, because i peiced one together..
thanks for all the background Gordon, it is interesting and fits right in with alot of our procurement stories.
pretty sure you have an early version reverser, wont interchange.
i may be wrong so the serial number will decide.

B Town · Post by **B Town** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:59 pm

That is a really nice original example. In my part of the country, the unmolested originals are more sought after than the restored examples. Especially with a great provenance. Bruce

Stan Disbrow · Post by **Stan Disbrow** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:42 pm

Hi,

I like it! Same faded paint scheme as mine.

What happens is people do not use the master clutch when reversing. They think it ought to work like the later hydraulic reversers. Work the lever only.

These have two clutch packs, similar to a motorcycle main clutch. They sit in a split housing with a set of spyder gears at the center. There is a forward clutch where the entire housing spins, and you go forward. There is a reverse clutch that lets the back side rotate backwards due to the spyder gears.

Think of having a car or truck up in the air. Rotate one wheel and the other goes opposite. Same idea, only now you are rotating the input shaft of the trans opposite.

When you depress the master clutch, power is dropped and the master brake stops the machine. Then you work the lever. If you do not use the master clutch and brake, the ears on the clutch pack discs start to bend. They bend enough, and they will not allow the pack to make up and so they slip.

The reverse pack gets hammered harder than the forward one, so it often goes first. I think this is where you are at. And, you have to yank the reverser out.

Another warning. Do not have any load on the machine with a reverser in reverse. No yanking stuff backwards. Use the trans in R and the reverser in F for yanking backwards.

Yet another warning. Do not use the reverser in R and the trans in R to gain some oddball forward gear. Ever. They originally had lockout bits for the shift tower R position. Usually, they are missing so reverser F and trans R could be used. But, now there is a risk of Double R, which is Death to the reverser spyder gears.

And, at the end of all this....you now know why they switched to hydraulic reversers on later models!

Stan

pop pop · Post by **pop pop** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:23 am

and now for page two, hopefully....

pop pop · Post by **pop pop** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:24 am

onto page 2

gschrader · Post by **gschrader** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:35 pm

Thanks to all for the helpful info and feedback. Its very much appreciated!

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