Ignition failure on 1010 gas engine

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Joe Copeland
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Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:16 pm

Ignition failure on 1010 gas engine

Post by Joe Copeland » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:14 pm

I am suddenly without any ignition. I have the Wico distributor and coil. I have voltage to the coil. A 12 volt battery is in the crawler. Was the original battery 12 volt? Is the coil 6 volt or 12 volt? Any trouble shouting recommendations? Joe
1010C
Serial No. 21751
1961
Gearmatic 8G Winch
Blade with outside track angle pins

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Stan Disbrow
350 crawler
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Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Ignition failure on 1010 gas engine

Post by Stan Disbrow » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:08 am

Hi,

Coil is 6v. There ought to be a ballast resistor present between the battery and the coil. There ought to be power at the points when they are open. If there is power at the coil input, and no power at the points when open, then the coil primary winding is open.

The way it works is the power passes thru the coil to the points. When the points close, power flows from the battery to ground. That generates a magnetic field inside the coil. When the points open, the power stops flowing and the magnetic field collapses and generates a corresponding field in the coil secondary which is high voltage. That passes thru the distributor to the proper spark plug.

The condenser acts to reduce the amount of the power feeding back thru the primary to the points which would jump the points and pit them.

What I fear is that no ballast resistor was added when the 12v battery replaced the 6v one....and now the coil has died.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Lavoy
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Re: Ignition failure on 1010 gas engine

Post by Lavoy » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:40 am

1010 was originally 12 volts, there is a possibility that it is still a 6 volt coil, but not positive. 1010 uses a starter with a solenoid. When starting, the contacts in the solenoid feed full voltage to the coil for starting. When the engine is running and no longer cranking, the contacts are disengaged and the power to the coil flows through the windings in the solenoid which creates the resistance and lower voltage to prevent the points burning. This is whey you don't see ballast resistors on the older GM stuff unlike the older Chrysler stuff.
Look at the old coil and see if it is labelled for voltage, and probably replace it. I would also replace the condenser.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

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Stan Disbrow
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Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Ignition failure on 1010 gas engine

Post by Stan Disbrow » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:07 pm

Hi,

Ah. It is the later scheme. That was actually a very good idea: keeping the 6v coil and ballasting it via the starter solenoid winding. That way, with the switching part of the solenoid, it always had 6v while starting instead of the 4v they would drop down to on the old 6v systems or the 12v systems incorporating a ballast resistor.

You might have voltage present in the run position and nothing while cranking, so there is something else to check for.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

Joe Copeland
MC crawler
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Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:16 pm

Re: Ignition failure on 1010 gas engine

Post by Joe Copeland » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:46 pm

Thanks for the help. The battery is 12 volts and positive ground. I have replaced the points and condenser since the contact points had some wear. The coil looks original and has continuity on the low voltage side. The coil has no voltage or name on it however the terminals are marked plus(+) and (-). The coil will put out a high voltage spark. The distributor cap and rotor look original and show their age by some erosion and pitted surfaces. At this time I have not finished troubleshooting the input voltages since I ran out of time today. Since it will not fire on cranking that will be my first check. It is arkward since I am working alone in a freezing shelter. The temperature will be in the teens tonight with a mild breeze. Thanks again,Joe
1010C
Serial No. 21751
1961
Gearmatic 8G Winch
Blade with outside track angle pins

krusty
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Re: Ignition failure on 1010 gas engine

Post by krusty » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:09 pm

You see one must really purchase enough scrap iron (I mean projects) to fully understand how an ignition circuit works. But before you spend time on this make sure you have yourself a nice little digital voltmeter. Any economical unit will do. Probably a beer too.

Signs you have faulty ignition components:

-wont start
-wont start easily
-needs choke to run
-runs great at startup, but then poorly when it starts to warm up or under load
-etc

Lets assume its a 12V machine. Take your voltmeter and lets follow the flow of electrons. First undo the wires at the coil, and also the resistor if there is one and also lets pop off the distributor cap. With the ignition switch on:


-measure the voltage at the + wire that was connected to the resistor input. It should read 12v, if not you have a bad input to the ignition circuitry, check: battery wiring, ignition switch wiring, switch to resistor wiring. If it is indeed 12v, you can connect it to the resistor.

-measure the opposite terminal of the resistor connected to nothing at this point. It should read 12v, if not you have a dud resistor

-connect the wire to the second terminal on the resistor now. Check the wire that would have been to the + on the coil. It should be 12v, if not, that wire is faulty. Connect the wire to the + coil. Check the - terminal on the coil, it should be 12v, if not, faulty coil.

-connect the wire to the - terminal.

-go to your wife's makeup bag and steal the nail file. With a screwdriver open up the points, put the file in, let them close on the file and go back and forth a couple times, not much. Just to freshen up the points before you buy a new set.

-with the file out, open and close the points with a screwdriver tip a couple times. You should see a good spark here. If not, the wire between - coil and points could be shot, or your condensor has shorted out. Undo the condensor wire from where it is connected and leave it hanging touching nothing. Tighten that nut back up on the points.

-try opening and closing points again and hopefully good spark seen at the points

-turn ignition switch off

-with the resistance setting on your digital voltmeter check the resistance from the - terminal on the coil and follow it into the distributor where it connects to the points. It should read 0 ohms or close to it. (use low resistance setting)

-check the resistance of the condensor, it should read infinity (use high resistance setting)

-measuring resistance again, one electrode on the - coil terminal and one on chassis ground (good connection) you can open and close the points, when closed it should be 0 resistance and when open, infinity.

The above should tell you if you have a functioning 12v circuit. If all that works fine, next is the distributor cap and rotor, plug wires, and plugs. I have no test for those other than looking like they are old! Dont forget to put the condensor wire back on.

One thing to keep in mind, often a coil will require an external resistor. Otherwise you will burn out the coil after a few months due to high current through it.

In all of my old scrap metal that burns gas with a distributor I use UC12 coils and an MSD 8214 resistor. on a 12V ignition, the UC12 coil is about 1.5 ohm and the resistor is .8 ohm giving you a nice 8v (approx) at the coil itself. You want somewhere between 6v and 8v at the + terminal of the coil and chassis ground with the ignition switch on and not running, that is unless you have a coil with an internal resistor.

Let us know what you find out!

Krusty

Joe Copeland
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Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:16 pm

Re: Ignition failure on 1010 gas engine

Post by Joe Copeland » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:36 pm

The temperature here in Southeast Virginia was great today and I made some tests on the 1010 ignition. The new points and condenser are installed. The points are measuring low/high resistance at the distributor output. The voltage to the coil is present on both start and run positions of the ignition switch. I am not getting any high voltage out of the coil at this time and the low voltage side of the coil has continuity. What is strange is that I have seen high voltage from this coil at one time during testing but can not repeat it now. I would like to replace this coil and would like recommendations. I think it is original but has no number or voltage on it. I would like to replace the Wico distributor cover and rotor also if available since they show wear but look original. The high voltage wires are good and look new. In the past this engine was in the way it started and ran. It would jump to life like it was eager to go every time you turned the engine over. Now it is totally dead for the first that I can remember. Thanks for any ideas. Joe
1010C
Serial No. 21751
1961
Gearmatic 8G Winch
Blade with outside track angle pins

Joe Copeland
MC crawler
MC crawler
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:16 pm

Re: Ignition failure on 1010 gas engine

Post by Joe Copeland » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:57 pm

The problem has been fixed and I am taking the stump roots out on a 200 year old red oak stump today. The stump is 7 foot 3 inches across at 30 inches above the ground. I burned the center of the stump before putting the 1010 on it. The roots push out like tree stumps. The ignition problem turned out to be the ignition coil which even though the old coil some times put out high voltage during testing. Thanks for the help. I try to keep the 1010 as original as possible when I work on it with the intent of helping future troubleshooting for someone. Joe
1010C
Serial No. 21751
1961
Gearmatic 8G Winch
Blade with outside track angle pins

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