jd440ic hyrdraulic pump rebuild kit

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dtoots1
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jd440ic hyrdraulic pump rebuild kit

Post by dtoots1 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:05 pm

Lavoy......

Looks like i am going to need to get a rebuild kit for my hydraulic pump.. it is 1960 model jd440 ic with the cam pump in front of block....

Also can i get to this thing without taking rad and front end off??? I rebuilt the one on my wheeled jd40 tractor but don't know how hard this one gonna be to get off....

tis slow and reluctant to lift my blade and then slowly goes back down even with the engine at fast idle....no leaks anywhere so almost has to be the pump???? has 20w with a bit to the old 10w in tank.

how much for rebuild kit and does it come with gears and shafts etc....

well just talked to Ma Deere and NLA on parts as well...so if you don't have available what pump do i need to get for on the crank? my donor has the flanges etc to mount including the splined shaft. Do you have something available and what changes would i have to do for clearance????

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic hyrdraulic pump rebuild kit

Post by dtoots1 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:39 pm

ok....so if i have to get salvage parts.....does the jd440 icd use the same hydraulic pump as the ic??? hopefully so or at least crank type on one with plumbing.....

anyone know answer??

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: jd440ic hyrdraulic pump rebuild kit

Post by Stan Disbrow » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:46 pm

Hi,

ICD is completely different from the IC due to the Detroit Diesel v the Deere gas engines.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Lavoy
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Re: jd440ic hyrdraulic pump rebuild kit

Post by Lavoy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:36 am

Doubt it is the pump, blade settling is almost always cups in the cylinders.
Radiator has to come off to get the pump off, difficult at best if you don't.
Crank pump is way higher GPM unless you get the small pump for diesel blade crawler. But, I would be rebuilding cylinders before pulling the pump.
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dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic hyrdraulic pump rebuild kit

Post by dtoots1 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:37 am

ok....so i now have 2 options.....
first of all how do i test the pump to see what it is doing? i do have 20w mixed with 10w that was in the reservoir for hyd fluid.

second...if i take lift cyls off would it be best to have tested off load??

neither cyl is showing any leakage....fact is i had one of them rebuilt just recently....

also i just did buy a hyd pump off an icd it has 9/16 inch splined shaft and only marking on it is a J at the front of pump about a 3 inch diameter pump..no name on it. and i need to get it tested as well..

simptoms on on dozer are reluctant lift and leak down on blade even at high idle....book says 8 gpm at 1800 rpm and 800psi, but where do i test for pressure? there is a small fitting at right front just behind where the pump is mounted..

also have 2 lift cylinders for the donor outside blade...tho don't know if will work with my 64 blade and need tested.

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Re: jd440ic hyrdraulic pump rebuild kit

Post by Jim B » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:59 am

If you lift your blade up, let the valve go to center (hold position) and shut the engine off. If the blade drops; it is most likely the problem is in the cylinders, as Lavoy said. A badly scored, or out of center, valve might do it but not as likely, from your description of the problem. I had a 430 with a weak centering spring that would drift down at times but it would lift the blade and apply down pressure ok. When the cups went in a cylinder; I had symptoms like you describe. Your oil mix may not be ideal but I doubt it is causing the problem.

If you want to visually test the cylinders in place (warning this can get messy) you lift the blade fully up so the cylinders are fully retracted and block it solidly (or otherwise secure it in the fully raised position). Unhook the hose from the base end of a lift cylinder (this would be the end of the cylinder that applies down pressure to the blade), run a hose from the port in the cylinder to a bucket. Heater hose or garden hose should be ok for this as you must leave it open ended in the bucket, so it holds no pressure. I would get a hose on the line you unhooked into the bucket as well in case it is the other cylinder bypassing. Start the engine and try to lift the blade. You should get little to no oil coming out of either hose if the cylinders were fully collapsed. After the cylinders are fully retracted, if oil runs out a hose while you hold the valve in the lift position with the engine running, the packing cups have failed in that cylinder. As Lavoy noted the internals can fail and you may still not have a leak from the rod gland.

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Re: jd440ic hyrdraulic pump rebuild kit

Post by dtoots1 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:23 am

one other thing to mention....it does not do good on down pressure either when i had it out running the other day, however i have had a problem with the control levers slipping and had to add set screws to try to stop the slipping and with the handles mounting to tubing the lift lever and the angle lever being on tubing the set screws seem to be engaging both at once occasionally so will have to address that and see if can back off the set screws to release pressure ....original locking screw cannot pinch enough to the tubing and no clearance to add shim is why tried set screws...

had been working great when i got cyl reconditioned...

will try testing and see results...

still need info in getting pressure reading for pump

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Re: jd440ic hyrdraulic pump rebuild kit

Post by Jim B » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:05 am

To test the pressure (strength), I don't know if there is a test port on your machine or not but you can always get a Tee and a few fittings and add a test port into the pressure line coming from the pump to the valve (or into a hose going to a cylinder port) to check pressure. Get hydraulic fittings not hardware store fittings due to the pressure. I don't know what the spec is for your pump pressure but a gauge reading at least 2000 psi is recommended for checking a 430C (pump on the front right side of the engine) and the relief setting looks like about 950 psi, from a quick look. If you have a manual for your machine that info should be in it.

To test the flow (speed) you really need a flowmeter to do it right.

If one control is dragging another out of center, or not centering properly itself, that could be part of your problem. If you got one cylinder rebuilt maybe the other is the problem now. Whenever I did mine (430C with the 62 dozer) I did both, they were simple and I never took the barrels off the tractor, only pulled the rams.

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic hyrdraulic pump rebuild kit

Post by dtoots1 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:12 am

ok...i got her up all the way and blocked....i did get extra set of repairs for the second cylinder and will try to get them replaced after i check the cyl to see if leak exposed from the hose...mine actually both connect at driver end of cyl...looks like top feed is for lift....by the way..there is 2 plugs at driver end of the cylinder.square female plugs...if i open the top plug that should be where i can see if leak thru the cups????? sure some oil will come out as dropped about 1/4 inch to blocking at the blade
my books says operating at 8gpm at 1800 rpm and 800psi

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Re: jd440ic hyrdraulic pump rebuild kit

Post by Jim B » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:45 am

Going by memory the hoses to the cylinders on the (430C) 62 blade attached on the side of the base on the left cylinder and there were two plugged ports on the end of that cylinder when you looked at it when sitting in the seat. I think the hoses on the right cylinder base used all four ports as the hoses went to the left cylinder from that one.

Do not remove the plug for the lift side (what I call the rod end) of the cylinder. When you check it you will be trying to lift the blade more, so you want to look at what comes out the down pressure side (base end, barrel end) of the cylinder, that would be internal leakage as it has to come by the packing cups. If you use the plug at the end of the cylinder, and oil comes out, you won't be sure which cylinder is leaking as it will cross feed via the hose, that is why I would recommend removing the hose. You will see the leakage from each cylinder separately that way. Yes expect to get a little oil as the cylinders pressure up.

Pressure and flow is similar to the 430C.

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic hyrdraulic pump rebuild kit

Post by dtoots1 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:05 pm

ok i started to remove the hose and figured it out that i needed it to try to lift and also seen that my down pressure would be empty,,so that figures...got sidetracked by son needing job down so be a while till can check dozer

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Re: jd440ic hyrdraulic pump rebuild kit

Post by Lavoy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:54 pm

Internal leakage past the cups can not be seen, so there will be no external evidence that this is the case as far as a leak. If the blade raises, the pump is working.
The crank pump you got is harder to fix or get parts for than the cam pump, and you will have to completely replumb the crawler essentially. Plus the drive shaft and coupler for the engine is hard to find, and expensive.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
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dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic hyrdraulic pump rebuild kit

Post by dtoots1 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:15 pm

oooo k now.....pulled hose and tested......small amount out of cyl ftg....actually got more out of the tubing from the valve itself....tried it several times to drop down to blocking and raise again.....however it does show tendency to operate the 2 valves that operate on the tubing shafts with the set screws....i will have to see if can drill thru first tubing to eliminate set screw dimple that probably catching the 2nd tubing and get set screw set without touching the 2nd inner tube.....that aught to be a real challenge.

original problem caused by many years of the levers slipping on the tubes and slightly removing material so that the pinch bolt cannot tighten properly against the tube....and do not see any method of removing material between the pinch bolt bosses.
by the way i did get to literally raise the front end with the blade so those are holding...so pump s.b. ok

will see what tomorrow brings....

thanks all for all your help....

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic hyrdraulic pump rebuild kit

Post by dtoots1 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:18 am

ok so tis working.....seems slow....so will try new with aw32 or aw48.....would the heavier be any faster or more efficient?? think home depot has some so will try once i get idea which is better.

i pulled handle actuators to see if set screws were dimpled too far.....and tested each with only that one on....all seemed to be working freely. tubing looks to be pretty tough cause not dimpled and does not appear to rust though possible some dirt or something inside the tubes cause problem??? sure aint much can fit in there to try to clean out...will try piece of wire and vacuum into a filter of some kind.

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