Was running my 440ic fine for about an hour and then I heard this metal scraping sound. Sounds like marbles and metal up near the belt area. Oil pressure and temp were fine, 40 and 180 respectively. Could this be a water pump? Hydraulics still work. Ideas? Engine does not smoke and sounds great aside from the metal noise.
Also, with the hydraulics. Once I have used it for a bit it really doesn't want to raise the blade up. Downpressure is no problem. Is this just leaky seals or something with the controls?
My Shifting is still acting wierd as well. Only 1st and reverse work well. If I put it in any other gear, it acts like it is going to do something and then just stays there (if there is any load). I think 3rd works if there is no load an it is a flat surface. No grinding or anything. Could this be the clutch somehow? It is a 5 speed.
-Tim
What is this noise?
What is this noise?
1958 440ic with blade
Our 450 at work had the same hydro symptoms a few months ago with the slow blade and whatnot. Turned out to be the splined coupler from the engine to the hydro pump. most of the teeth were shot. Im not sure what a 440 shaft looks like but I know my 1010 is diferent than the 450.
My guess would be to check out the pump drive first since everything else sounds like its running good.
Just thought of something, if a 440 has the disconnect lever and coupler on the shaft like the 1010, maybe its just making partial contact and chattering?
My guess would be to check out the pump drive first since everything else sounds like its running good.
Just thought of something, if a 440 has the disconnect lever and coupler on the shaft like the 1010, maybe its just making partial contact and chattering?
The Operators Manual states that there should be 1" of free travel in the clutch pedal. Does this mean that the pedal should only move 1" or that it should move 1" before feeling pressure? I looked in the service manual and they show me how to tear everything apart but I didn't see an adjustment area so I went back to the operators manual. Gotta love having manuals on PDF!
1958 440ic with blade
The noise is definitely the water pump. I removed the hood and it is clear that the fan is making contact with the radiator fins and that is where the metal scraping noise is coming from. Also there is a slight amount of water under the pump.
I didn't have time to take the radiator out today, but hopefully it isn't too dinged up.
I checked the clutch free play and there was about 1 3/4 inches before strong resistance which I am assuming is the disengagement. I am still not sure what to make of the gear issue. I think 1st. 2nd, and reverse work all the time, 3rd works but not under load, and I am not sure about 4th. I don't think 5th works at all. Like I said I don't hear grinding of any kind to tell me that the gears are not coming together right. Is it worth taking the transmission cover off to see the condition of the shift levers? What are the pros and cons of leaving it alone and working as is? Is there any other clutch setting that I could check? It was built with a reverser but the previous owner claims that he put a straight shaft in since the reverser was a pain to adjust and the parts were too $$$.
When it is in first and reverse it doesn't hesitate and has strong push power. It'll push till the engine bogs down, which makes me wonder, how could it be a clutch? But then again, why do the high gears get finicky?
Hopefully I have time to pull the radiator and pump tomorrow. We just got our first snow tonight and I am playing catchup with the outside chores
I didn't have time to take the radiator out today, but hopefully it isn't too dinged up.
I checked the clutch free play and there was about 1 3/4 inches before strong resistance which I am assuming is the disengagement. I am still not sure what to make of the gear issue. I think 1st. 2nd, and reverse work all the time, 3rd works but not under load, and I am not sure about 4th. I don't think 5th works at all. Like I said I don't hear grinding of any kind to tell me that the gears are not coming together right. Is it worth taking the transmission cover off to see the condition of the shift levers? What are the pros and cons of leaving it alone and working as is? Is there any other clutch setting that I could check? It was built with a reverser but the previous owner claims that he put a straight shaft in since the reverser was a pain to adjust and the parts were too $$$.
When it is in first and reverse it doesn't hesitate and has strong push power. It'll push till the engine bogs down, which makes me wonder, how could it be a clutch? But then again, why do the high gears get finicky?
Hopefully I have time to pull the radiator and pump tomorrow. We just got our first snow tonight and I am playing catchup with the outside chores
1958 440ic with blade
-
hunter41mag
- 440 crawler
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:11 am
- Location: Eastern Pennsylvania (NE of Allentown)
Tim,
A slipping clutch will slip more in the higher gears. This is due to you have more gear multiplication in the lower gears which put less stress (resistance) on clutch.
An easy check would be to pull a side plug/cover on housing where reverser would normally be and have someone watch to see if through shaft is turning when in a high gear and dozer not moving. Make sure to stay away from tracks in case dozer decides all of a sudden to move.
If shaft turns than problem in the trans or steering clutches, if shaft is not turning the problem is with engine clutch.
Don
Eastern PA
440IC
A slipping clutch will slip more in the higher gears. This is due to you have more gear multiplication in the lower gears which put less stress (resistance) on clutch.
An easy check would be to pull a side plug/cover on housing where reverser would normally be and have someone watch to see if through shaft is turning when in a high gear and dozer not moving. Make sure to stay away from tracks in case dozer decides all of a sudden to move.
If shaft turns than problem in the trans or steering clutches, if shaft is not turning the problem is with engine clutch.
Don
Eastern PA
440IC
Don,
What is the remedy if it is the clutch? Do I need to split it or is there any adjustments that can be made? If it does need to be split, would there be any harm in running it till the clutch got worse? 1st, 2nd, and reverse are good, 3rd works with no load, I don't believe I have gotten 5th to work, not sure about 4th.
It seems to have plenty of power in the low gears, don't believe the clutch is slipping then. Would like to use it this way as long as possible to offset the expense if possible.
What is the remedy if it is the clutch? Do I need to split it or is there any adjustments that can be made? If it does need to be split, would there be any harm in running it till the clutch got worse? 1st, 2nd, and reverse are good, 3rd works with no load, I don't believe I have gotten 5th to work, not sure about 4th.
It seems to have plenty of power in the low gears, don't believe the clutch is slipping then. Would like to use it this way as long as possible to offset the expense if possible.
1958 440ic with blade
Tim-
I don't know much about steering clutches in crawlers, but I have worn out engines clutches in both wheel tractors and autos. They will gradually have more and more slippage until the pressure plate breaks or clutch disc falls apart and the tractor stops moving. That or sometimes the engine clutch will be stuck engaged which is more dangerous. The engine clutch in my 8N wheel tractor literally came apart in pieces when I split my tractor last year.
It seems to me that it would happen at the worst time for a crawler, like when the crawler is under full load and/or in a bad location or position. You can also cause excessive wear to the flywheel surface whcih may be a problem since I bet replacement flywheels are tough to find.
I don't know much about steering clutches in crawlers, but I have worn out engines clutches in both wheel tractors and autos. They will gradually have more and more slippage until the pressure plate breaks or clutch disc falls apart and the tractor stops moving. That or sometimes the engine clutch will be stuck engaged which is more dangerous. The engine clutch in my 8N wheel tractor literally came apart in pieces when I split my tractor last year.
It seems to me that it would happen at the worst time for a crawler, like when the crawler is under full load and/or in a bad location or position. You can also cause excessive wear to the flywheel surface whcih may be a problem since I bet replacement flywheels are tough to find.
Tim,
I'm neither a mechanic, nor a mechanic's son, and I don't contribute much about what makes these crawlers tick, but the thought of running around working a tractor about ready to blow a clutch would make me nervous as a...well, really nervous.
Although it can be pulled around dead, it won't be nearly as easy as pulling around something on four wheels. If it's off in a hole someplace when it breaks, you will be looking for something substantially bigger to get it out of the hole.
Me, I would make sure it had enough "go" in it to get it into a really good position in which to find out what the problem its.
Gary
I'm neither a mechanic, nor a mechanic's son, and I don't contribute much about what makes these crawlers tick, but the thought of running around working a tractor about ready to blow a clutch would make me nervous as a...well, really nervous.
Although it can be pulled around dead, it won't be nearly as easy as pulling around something on four wheels. If it's off in a hole someplace when it breaks, you will be looking for something substantially bigger to get it out of the hole.
Me, I would make sure it had enough "go" in it to get it into a really good position in which to find out what the problem its.
Gary
Sounds like I am in for an engine pull . Off to the store for more tools
As far as fixing the clutch, is there a standard rebuild process or do I replace the discs and springs or ???. Not really sure what I am in for there. Or is it a wait and see what I find approach? Any other items that need to be looked at while I've got it apart? I am glad I haven't pulled the radiator yet. I can still fire it up and move it off to the side of the shed. Sounds like it is going to be out of service for a bit.
What kind of expense can I expect for the clutch? I'll be doing the work myself if possible.
. Off to the store for more tools As far as fixing the clutch, is there a standard rebuild process or do I replace the discs and springs or ???. Not really sure what I am in for there. Or is it a wait and see what I find approach? Any other items that need to be looked at while I've got it apart? I am glad I haven't pulled the radiator yet. I can still fire it up and move it off to the side of the shed. Sounds like it is going to be out of service for a bit.
What kind of expense can I expect for the clutch? I'll be doing the work myself if possible.
1958 440ic with blade
Tim,
As cost, parts, and such, I'm not at all equipped to answer to those issues, but I did just go through an engine removal...and finals.
When you say, "off to the side of the shed," I'm assuming that's not under cover? It would be really good if you could have it under cover, and better if it were on some sort of solid pad, preferably concrete.
To remove the engine, I used the forks on the tractor. Mine was under a roof, but on dirt. An engine crane is just about impossible in dirt. You need something to grab the weight....maybe four of five hundred pounds. It can be made lighter by removing all the extras first. I suppose something could be rigged under the engine, but I didn't appoach it that way.
The clutch is a relatively easy fix. You will need, or should have, the gauge with which to adjust the fingers, and you will need something with which to align the clutch when you secure it in the flywheel. I made that of PVC pipe, a piece of metal rod, and tape. It worked. Some use a turned piece of wood.
You probably should also replace the throughout bearing while you are there. And check the starter ring gear on the flywheel. I turned mine, but that's an age old procedure not now done much. Tap it off with brass drifts, turn it over, light heat, no more than 400 degrees, and tap it on. My multi meter has a temp gauge, so I used that to make sure I didn't get it too hot.
While off, I had my radiator cleaned, but that's a judgement call.
You don't need a lot of extra tools for the job, but some of the wrenches are necessarily on the large side. As I recall, nothing over an inch??
Also might be a good time to check over hydraulic lines, as you will have them at least loose. I did a complete rebuild so I had everything apart. You won't have to do that.
Good luck
Gary Fossen
As cost, parts, and such, I'm not at all equipped to answer to those issues, but I did just go through an engine removal...and finals.
When you say, "off to the side of the shed," I'm assuming that's not under cover? It would be really good if you could have it under cover, and better if it were on some sort of solid pad, preferably concrete.
To remove the engine, I used the forks on the tractor. Mine was under a roof, but on dirt. An engine crane is just about impossible in dirt. You need something to grab the weight....maybe four of five hundred pounds. It can be made lighter by removing all the extras first. I suppose something could be rigged under the engine, but I didn't appoach it that way.
The clutch is a relatively easy fix. You will need, or should have, the gauge with which to adjust the fingers, and you will need something with which to align the clutch when you secure it in the flywheel. I made that of PVC pipe, a piece of metal rod, and tape. It worked. Some use a turned piece of wood.
You probably should also replace the throughout bearing while you are there. And check the starter ring gear on the flywheel. I turned mine, but that's an age old procedure not now done much. Tap it off with brass drifts, turn it over, light heat, no more than 400 degrees, and tap it on. My multi meter has a temp gauge, so I used that to make sure I didn't get it too hot.
While off, I had my radiator cleaned, but that's a judgement call.
You don't need a lot of extra tools for the job, but some of the wrenches are necessarily on the large side. As I recall, nothing over an inch??
Also might be a good time to check over hydraulic lines, as you will have them at least loose. I did a complete rebuild so I had everything apart. You won't have to do that.
Good luck
Gary Fossen
I 'm sure Lavoy and others with more crawler experience will be able to give you some specifics on this- as I said before I have done many engine clutches but mainly on autos and wheel tractors.
Unless downtime is a significant issue with you, I would go with a wait-and-see approach. I have often found that I needed more parts than I originally anticipated. Usually you can purchase a clutch set that includes new or rebuilt clutch disc, pressure plate, and throwout and pilot bearings. If you try and reuse parts, you'll find out that the new parts will wear out the old even faster and be pulling it again later. I think the clutch sets for Deere are usually in the couple hundred dollar range, but Lavoy will be able to tell you better.
While I had it apart, I would also check the flywheel to see if it needs resurfacing or re-ringed (if the teeth on the flywheel are ground down). You will want to check out the clutch fork for excessive wear as well.
I personally would also replace whatever gaskets or seals that are easily accesible on the transmission or reverser side (I'll defer to others on what these actually are).
If you have time, I personally would also do some basic engine maintenance and preventitive work since you will already have it out and it is difficult to access in-frame. This would be degreasing and or power washing the engine block and frame, replacing simple gaskets such as oil pan and valve cover gaskets, and oil seals (again if easily accesible). If it has rubber engine mounts, this is a good time to replace them.
If you decide to do gaskets and seals, make sure you do all of them as the new seals and gaskets will increase pressure on the remaining old ones and cause a leak. if you do remove pans or covers, it would be good to inspect wear at least visually so you know how much life you have left in the engine.
Just my $0.02 from working on other vehicles and wheel tractors.
Unless downtime is a significant issue with you, I would go with a wait-and-see approach. I have often found that I needed more parts than I originally anticipated. Usually you can purchase a clutch set that includes new or rebuilt clutch disc, pressure plate, and throwout and pilot bearings. If you try and reuse parts, you'll find out that the new parts will wear out the old even faster and be pulling it again later. I think the clutch sets for Deere are usually in the couple hundred dollar range, but Lavoy will be able to tell you better.
While I had it apart, I would also check the flywheel to see if it needs resurfacing or re-ringed (if the teeth on the flywheel are ground down). You will want to check out the clutch fork for excessive wear as well.
I personally would also replace whatever gaskets or seals that are easily accesible on the transmission or reverser side (I'll defer to others on what these actually are).
If you have time, I personally would also do some basic engine maintenance and preventitive work since you will already have it out and it is difficult to access in-frame. This would be degreasing and or power washing the engine block and frame, replacing simple gaskets such as oil pan and valve cover gaskets, and oil seals (again if easily accesible). If it has rubber engine mounts, this is a good time to replace them.
If you decide to do gaskets and seals, make sure you do all of them as the new seals and gaskets will increase pressure on the remaining old ones and cause a leak. if you do remove pans or covers, it would be good to inspect wear at least visually so you know how much life you have left in the engine.
Just my $0.02 from working on other vehicles and wheel tractors.
Last edited by Tigerhaze on Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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