Tim,
If you decide to replace seals, as Tigerhaze rightly suggests, be damn carefull when you remove the flywheel. It's heavier than it appears...maybe 100 lbs worth, and a bit hard to grasp.
Gary
What is this noise?
Gary,
It is in the shed but it is in the middle of everything right now. That is a good idea about using the tractor loader and forks. I don't have forks but could I just use a chain over the quick tatch assembly? I have never pulled an engine before. I have an engine stand that I was going to use on a M that I was going to restore but I never got that far before trading it off. I looked briefly at the automotive engine hoists and they had tiny wheels and stuck out as far as they reached. I thought this might interfere with the tracks. Would be nice to have another way. I will be going into uncharted territory for me with the flywheel and clutch fork so I might post some pictures here for advice.
Tigerhaze,
Yeah I plan on washing the engine down and replacing the water pump and checking all the seals out. I know the valve cover leaks so I will take care of that too. Also cleaning it up and a new coat of paint will really help. Engine runs solid, no smoke even which is why this really frustrates me about the clutch. I'll probably just go ahead and clean the whole machine and give it a paint job while I am at it.
It is in the shed but it is in the middle of everything right now. That is a good idea about using the tractor loader and forks. I don't have forks but could I just use a chain over the quick tatch assembly? I have never pulled an engine before. I have an engine stand that I was going to use on a M that I was going to restore but I never got that far before trading it off. I looked briefly at the automotive engine hoists and they had tiny wheels and stuck out as far as they reached. I thought this might interfere with the tracks. Would be nice to have another way. I will be going into uncharted territory for me with the flywheel and clutch fork so I might post some pictures here for advice.
Tigerhaze,
Yeah I plan on washing the engine down and replacing the water pump and checking all the seals out. I know the valve cover leaks so I will take care of that too. Also cleaning it up and a new coat of paint will really help. Engine runs solid, no smoke even which is why this really frustrates me about the clutch. I'll probably just go ahead and clean the whole machine and give it a paint job while I am at it.
1958 440ic with blade
Tim,
I could not have rebuilt mine without an engine stand, not easily, anyway. Problem is, it won't go on a stand with the flywheel in place. I jury rigged a cradle on which to sit it with a couple 4x6s and a cross piece on the front to keep them from spreading. It caught the lip of the oil pan. I then removed the flywheel, and was able to put it on the stand.
I think you could pick up the engine from the underside, but I wouldn't want to put much pressure on the pan, itself.
It has to be relatively straight and true to be moved forward, and re-installed.
For the record, this is my first engine removal, too.
This whole thing, at least for me, took a lot of sitting and thinking and scratching...maybe just exactly how one holds one's mouth might make a difference, too.
All in all, it was a fun experience.
Gary
I could not have rebuilt mine without an engine stand, not easily, anyway. Problem is, it won't go on a stand with the flywheel in place. I jury rigged a cradle on which to sit it with a couple 4x6s and a cross piece on the front to keep them from spreading. It caught the lip of the oil pan. I then removed the flywheel, and was able to put it on the stand.
I think you could pick up the engine from the underside, but I wouldn't want to put much pressure on the pan, itself.
It has to be relatively straight and true to be moved forward, and re-installed.
For the record, this is my first engine removal, too.
This whole thing, at least for me, took a lot of sitting and thinking and scratching...maybe just exactly how one holds one's mouth might make a difference, too.
All in all, it was a fun experience.
Gary
Gary, I have an engine stand, just not a hoist. I am sure I could use one for other vehicles I just haven't needed it yet. So I need to get the flywheel off before it will mate to a stand? Good to know. How does the flywheel come off? Do I need pullers or anything like that?
I am glad I am not the only one new to this
Edit: Just looked at my parts catalog, looks like flywheel just unbolts...
I am glad I am not the only one new to this
Edit: Just looked at my parts catalog, looks like flywheel just unbolts...
1958 440ic with blade
-
hunter41mag
- 440 crawler
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:11 am
- Location: Eastern Pennsylvania (NE of Allentown)
Tim,
As everyone else pointed out do not wait till it will not move at all. Murphy's law it will be at the most in-accessable place for it to happen and it will cause farther damage!
Also as everyone else mentioned do not try to save a few $ and only replace the clutch disc. I would install a new/rebuilt clutch disc, pressure plate and throw out brg and also have the flywheel turned (since it was slipping in higher gears).
It pays in the long run to fix them right the first time.
Don
Eastern PA
440IC
As everyone else pointed out do not wait till it will not move at all. Murphy's law it will be at the most in-accessable place for it to happen and it will cause farther damage!
Also as everyone else mentioned do not try to save a few $ and only replace the clutch disc. I would install a new/rebuilt clutch disc, pressure plate and throw out brg and also have the flywheel turned (since it was slipping in higher gears).
It pays in the long run to fix them right the first time.
Don
Eastern PA
440IC
Tim,
You need it on the engine stand if you plan to do work on the engine itself. You can do whatever needs done to the clutch without putting it on the stand. Yes, one of the other tractors will work, if it has some sort of hydraulic lift. Might not hurt to have someone with you to run the tractor...someone who knows how to handle the hydraulics. It can be a bit tricky alone, especially if the hydraulics don't hold dead on. I did it alone, but I'm use to working alone.
Once again, that flywheel needs respect. It's heavy. I had the engine in it's make-shift craddle, and then I blocked under the flywheel, itself, so that it had no place to fall. Then I took off the bolts.
Gary
You need it on the engine stand if you plan to do work on the engine itself. You can do whatever needs done to the clutch without putting it on the stand. Yes, one of the other tractors will work, if it has some sort of hydraulic lift. Might not hurt to have someone with you to run the tractor...someone who knows how to handle the hydraulics. It can be a bit tricky alone, especially if the hydraulics don't hold dead on. I did it alone, but I'm use to working alone.
Once again, that flywheel needs respect. It's heavy. I had the engine in it's make-shift craddle, and then I blocked under the flywheel, itself, so that it had no place to fall. Then I took off the bolts.
Gary
Do you think an engine hoist would work well on a 3/4 sheet of plywood if I got that under the crawler? It is in a lime floor shed right now. I have the grousers so they aren't very friendly to concrete floors.
My dad offered to pay for the clutch since I am doing some dirt work for him. Might happen sooner now.
Are just about any of the engine stands the same or is there a certain one I should look for? I thought for sure a leveler would be good. My dad also thought I could use my tractor loader and attach a chain hoist to it to better control the movement. I might do this in a pinch but I agree the engine hoist would allow for more precise positioning and control. One slip of the loader controls and my engine could be banging into the side of the crawler or dropping on the floor.
My dad offered to pay for the clutch since I am doing some dirt work for him. Might happen sooner now
.Are just about any of the engine stands the same or is there a certain one I should look for? I thought for sure a leveler would be good. My dad also thought I could use my tractor loader and attach a chain hoist to it to better control the movement. I might do this in a pinch but I agree the engine hoist would allow for more precise positioning and control. One slip of the loader controls and my engine could be banging into the side of the crawler or dropping on the floor.
1958 440ic with blade
Tim,
I just bought an engine hoist for my son. On the lower end of the scale, they look as if they all come from the same pacific rim shop. I bought mine at Harbor Freight as it was on sale, and the cheapest in town.
Beware, though, that they have a "light duty" model, and a regular one. Weights are assigned to them. I think maybe 1000 and 2000 lbs. The light really cheap one is definitely too light. The one I bought was, I think, 150 bucks on sale, they run between there and 200.
As to the plywood, it probably would work if on a relatively flat, level, and solid base.
You can also put down boards, and run the crawler on the concrete. That is what I did, and it works well. When I built the shop, I should have laid in steel runners in one bay, but one cannot think of everything, and they probably would have been the wrong width, anyway.
I did use the tractor front hoist (with forks, but the bucket would have worked), but my hydraulics are solid with no bleed off, and...I was lucky.
Gary
I just bought an engine hoist for my son. On the lower end of the scale, they look as if they all come from the same pacific rim shop. I bought mine at Harbor Freight as it was on sale, and the cheapest in town.
Beware, though, that they have a "light duty" model, and a regular one. Weights are assigned to them. I think maybe 1000 and 2000 lbs. The light really cheap one is definitely too light. The one I bought was, I think, 150 bucks on sale, they run between there and 200.
As to the plywood, it probably would work if on a relatively flat, level, and solid base.
You can also put down boards, and run the crawler on the concrete. That is what I did, and it works well. When I built the shop, I should have laid in steel runners in one bay, but one cannot think of everything, and they probably would have been the wrong width, anyway.
I did use the tractor front hoist (with forks, but the bucket would have worked), but my hydraulics are solid with no bleed off, and...I was lucky.
Gary
Tim-
The engine stands are about the same as the hoists- they are pretty similar and made in the Pacific Rim. They usually go for around $40 to $50 for a standard engine stand. They also have heavy duty versions- if you plan to do big engines ant some point you may want a HD stand.
If you use a engine hoist, the leveler comes in handy for precisely lining up the engine with transmission- very helpfulwhen lining up the input shaft with the clutch.
Gary-
Can you talk a little more about the steel runners? I am going to build a shop this spring and hadn't really thought about that but now would be the time. Would there be some way to have it removeable or adjustable for width? I was thinking maybe you could have two grooves in the floor that would fit two steel plates with a "T" to key it into the floor. Just brainstomring here, but would like to hear you ideas on that. Also, what is your recommended slab thickness- would 4" reinforced be enough or would I need to go to 6" reinforced (for a smaller crawler loader up to a JD450 size)?
The engine stands are about the same as the hoists- they are pretty similar and made in the Pacific Rim. They usually go for around $40 to $50 for a standard engine stand. They also have heavy duty versions- if you plan to do big engines ant some point you may want a HD stand.
If you use a engine hoist, the leveler comes in handy for precisely lining up the engine with transmission- very helpfulwhen lining up the input shaft with the clutch.
Gary-
Can you talk a little more about the steel runners? I am going to build a shop this spring and hadn't really thought about that but now would be the time. Would there be some way to have it removeable or adjustable for width? I was thinking maybe you could have two grooves in the floor that would fit two steel plates with a "T" to key it into the floor. Just brainstomring here, but would like to hear you ideas on that. Also, what is your recommended slab thickness- would 4" reinforced be enough or would I need to go to 6" reinforced (for a smaller crawler loader up to a JD450 size)?
I know you asked Gary, but I will give some input.
I toured the Cat plant in Peoria many years ago. What they had was steel strap laid on edge embedded in the concrete. It was fairly thick as there are some pretty big crawler rolling around in there. We watched a D7 or D8 sized crawler sit and spin in circles on the floor, and it just spins on the steel. My guess would be that they laid a substantial slab, and then formed a grid with the steel strap and poured another layer of concrete flush with the top of the steel.
As to thinkness, I would go more than 4" if you want to put a 450 size machinein there. They are not heavy in PSI, but have a lot of impact as they move. My shop is 5", 6 bag mix and I have had no problem. Also, if you do not pivot real sharp with grousers, they do not really do anything to the floor. I probably roll more crawlers in and out than you would, and the floor is still fine after 8 years. The one thing I would NEVER do again is allow them to cut the crack lines in with a saw. Every time a crawler goes over one, they tend to crack the edges of the cut off, and then it looks like hell. If I ever build a different shop, it will have no cuts in it anywhere.
Lavoy
I toured the Cat plant in Peoria many years ago. What they had was steel strap laid on edge embedded in the concrete. It was fairly thick as there are some pretty big crawler rolling around in there. We watched a D7 or D8 sized crawler sit and spin in circles on the floor, and it just spins on the steel. My guess would be that they laid a substantial slab, and then formed a grid with the steel strap and poured another layer of concrete flush with the top of the steel.
As to thinkness, I would go more than 4" if you want to put a 450 size machinein there. They are not heavy in PSI, but have a lot of impact as they move. My shop is 5", 6 bag mix and I have had no problem. Also, if you do not pivot real sharp with grousers, they do not really do anything to the floor. I probably roll more crawlers in and out than you would, and the floor is still fine after 8 years. The one thing I would NEVER do again is allow them to cut the crack lines in with a saw. Every time a crawler goes over one, they tend to crack the edges of the cut off, and then it looks like hell. If I ever build a different shop, it will have no cuts in it anywhere.
Lavoy
Tigerhaze,
Lavoy had more to offer than I might on the floor thing. I would consider strips of "I" beam, or railroad track, or something like that. Perhaps a bit more concrete immediately under the steel. I just roll the crawler in and out...no turning within the shop, so the idea is a bit more simple.
I've been using 2x6s and it works well, but they have to be moved in and out all the time. I have a 6 inch floor with a 2 foot rebar grid (might be 18 inches, I forgot) and it will take anything I can throw at it.
A 450 would be more than double the weight of my 420, but I don't think weight is really the issue. Sort of like a spiked heel having more psi than an elephant foot. A pickup will concentrate a hell of a lot more psi in one spot than a cat.
What I really want is some sort of overhead crane. That's rattling around in the back of my mind.
Gary
Lavoy had more to offer than I might on the floor thing. I would consider strips of "I" beam, or railroad track, or something like that. Perhaps a bit more concrete immediately under the steel. I just roll the crawler in and out...no turning within the shop, so the idea is a bit more simple.
I've been using 2x6s and it works well, but they have to be moved in and out all the time. I have a 6 inch floor with a 2 foot rebar grid (might be 18 inches, I forgot) and it will take anything I can throw at it.
A 450 would be more than double the weight of my 420, but I don't think weight is really the issue. Sort of like a spiked heel having more psi than an elephant foot. A pickup will concentrate a hell of a lot more psi in one spot than a cat.
What I really want is some sort of overhead crane. That's rattling around in the back of my mind.
Gary
Thanks for the reply guys. I am still formulating what I want out of a shop, but I definitely want to factor in the ability to work on heavier equipment like a crawler. I think I will put in a 5" reinforced slab at least, and may think about putting in some sort of steel plate or edging. I also thought about an overhead crane or pulley setup. Definietly a lot to think about.
Tiger,
One thing I have found, while working on my 420, is that I have only marginal clearance for crawling under it even when it is elevated two inches with boards. If you think you may want to raise the crawler when in the shop, the imbedded steel would be somewhat academic.
Lots of outlets, both 110 and 220. Running water (I don't have it, yet). Maybe plumbed for air (mine isn't, and I fight the hose). I have no windows (to save wall space), and I don't miss them.
Oversized doors, if possible. Never enough bench space. Ability to drive in one side, and out the other, would be nice, but not necessary.
Tall walls, and clear span ceiling, if possible. I have about 13 feet in the center, and it is quite handy.
Provisions for the crane, be they reinforced floor, or reinforced uprights. I intend to install one that swings out from one of the support pillars, and will cover the ends of two bays.
So much to do, and so little time. I hope for reincarnation.
Gary
One thing I have found, while working on my 420, is that I have only marginal clearance for crawling under it even when it is elevated two inches with boards. If you think you may want to raise the crawler when in the shop, the imbedded steel would be somewhat academic.
Lots of outlets, both 110 and 220. Running water (I don't have it, yet). Maybe plumbed for air (mine isn't, and I fight the hose). I have no windows (to save wall space), and I don't miss them.
Oversized doors, if possible. Never enough bench space. Ability to drive in one side, and out the other, would be nice, but not necessary.
Tall walls, and clear span ceiling, if possible. I have about 13 feet in the center, and it is quite handy.
Provisions for the crane, be they reinforced floor, or reinforced uprights. I intend to install one that swings out from one of the support pillars, and will cover the ends of two bays.
So much to do, and so little time. I hope for reincarnation.
Gary
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