40C vs 420C hyd pump

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Bret4207
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40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Bret4207 » Wed May 02, 2018 11:10 am

Is there any difference between the 40C and 420C hydraulic pumps?
40C, 420C, 1010C-L-BH, Cat D4

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Lavoy
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Lavoy » Wed May 02, 2018 2:00 pm

Suction line is different, GPM is different.
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Bret4207
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Bret4207 » Thu May 03, 2018 5:41 am

Thanks Lavoy, will it work in a pinch while the other one is being rebuilt?
40C, 420C, 1010C-L-BH, Cat D4

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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Lavoy » Thu May 03, 2018 12:51 pm

Not sure how you would hook up the suction line.
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boler76
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by boler76 » Thu May 10, 2018 3:33 pm

so you are rebuilding a front mount pump? were did you get parts other than seals and bearings?

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu May 10, 2018 4:07 pm

Hi,

He is referring to the camshaft driven pumps.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by boler76 » Sun May 13, 2018 5:23 pm

I mean parts for camshaft driven pump as on my '56 420, like housing and gears? thanks

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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Lavoy » Mon May 14, 2018 10:40 am

Housing and gears are used only.
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Bret4207 » Tue May 29, 2018 6:12 am

I ended up getting a good used pump with proper front section from a guy in California. Took an hour of internet searching, finally looked for front side number M3191T and found it. I was going to rebuild the old pump but one bearing hole was badly wallowed out. Still not sure why it happened or how long it's been like that. It was obvious someone else had been in there ahead of me as it had incorrect bolts holding the halves together.

So what is the preferred hydraulic oil to use in a 420 these days? I was using generic 303 type, but that gets too thick in winter IMO.
40C, 420C, 1010C-L-BH, Cat D4

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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Stan Disbrow » Tue May 29, 2018 6:19 am

Hi,

JD HyGard is lighter than 303 and they also offer a Low Viscosity variant if you find the regular too heavy. The tractor supply stores offer a couple ranges of hyd oil called out by ISO numbers, again they have heavier and lighter viscosities. Any of these will work fine once you figure out which viscosity you need. Worst case, you may find you have to swap it out for Winter and Summer.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Lavoy » Tue May 29, 2018 9:22 am

Something is odd, 303 flows better than pretty much anything else you could buy other than a low vis product. Running 303 or HyGard you will lose pressure compared to straight hyd fluid due to the lower viscosity of the multi trans products.
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Bret4207
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Bret4207 » Tue May 29, 2018 5:08 pm

Huh. So 303 should be thinner than, say, 20wt? I wonder if the stuff the previous owner had in there (who knows what that junk was) reacted with the 303 I used and gummed up some? I know I changed it a few times due to water in the fluid. Emptied the tank right out twice but still had milky fluid in 30 minutes run time. Must be a lot of water in there somewhere.

Picked up a fresh 5 gallons of 303 today, pump arrived, we'll see how it goes. Maybe the "too thick" opinion I got was the old pump not being up to snuff.

Jeeze, if I get this fixed I'm going to want to fix the control valve so the blade doesn't float to the ground every 45 seconds or so unless I lift it again. It never ends! :lol:
40C, 420C, 1010C-L-BH, Cat D4

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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Lavoy » Wed May 30, 2018 9:38 am

303 is a 10wt if I remember correctly. I usually only run a 20 wt or 30 wt straight hydraulic, and it gets well below zero here, and have no trouble. I don't like 303 for the loss in pressure, and the howling of the pump that usually goes with it. I do run it in anything with remotes that might get cross contamination from another tractor that uses only 303 type fluid.
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Stan Disbrow » Wed May 30, 2018 10:56 am

Hi,

303 is SAE 20, or ISO 46, more or less. I find it varies a little bit by source. Some are a bit heavier than others.

The tractor supply stores tend to use the ISO viscosity numbers on their hydraulic oils these days. The digits are different but still follow 'the higher the number - the thicker the oil' scheme. The ones near me have 32 and 46 and sometimes 68.

To cross it, ISO 32 is SAE 10-15, ISO 46 is SAE 20 and ISO 68 is SAE 30. More or less. There isn't an exact cross match between ISO and SAE, but this is Good Enough a cross for us to go with.

I opt for the ISO 46 oil the local oil store carries in the older machines where it is just hydraulics. Those being the 1950 M tractor and the 1958 420c crawler. It works OK, which is the important point.

All the newer stuff gets Deere HyGard, mostly because it is what they call for. For me, that means the 2008 5103 tractor, the 2005 x495 garden tractor and the 1978 JD350C crawler. Deere calls it out as being between ISO 42 and 68 @ 40 C. I think it falls at the low end of that range myself. And, just to complete the list, they call out their low viscosity HyGard as ISO 32.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Bret4207
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Bret4207 » Thu May 31, 2018 6:24 am

Thanks guys. The new pump was nice and clean inside. It went in fine. Added new 303 and still have the slow acting when raising blade and it starts dropping as soon as I let off on the control lever. I'm assuming the seals in the control valve are shot. Have the manuals but am going to have to start hunting parts. Does Deere still carry that stuff or would I be better off going to a hydraulic shop? Looks pretty simple to rebuild.

As far as the viscosity of the 303, what youv'e said makes sense. I'm still getting the "milky" look to the oil after 10 minutes or so of run time, so a thorough flush is needed. I will hunt up a heavier oil.

Has anyone ever added a filter to the original hyd system? Is it even a good idea? I had a lot of metal from the bad bearing in mine and while I've tried to get it out, it still concerns me.
40C, 420C, 1010C-L-BH, Cat D4

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