40C vs 420C hyd pump

General help and support for your Lindeman through 2010 John Deere crawler
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Stan Disbrow
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu May 31, 2018 6:38 am

Hi,

Oh, and the Deere spec for 303 is J14C, HyGard is J20C and low viscosity HyGard is J20D. When looking at buckets in stores, these three specs are what will be called out on the label for what the oil is formulated to be the equivalent of. The 303 number might be on the bucket but HyGard is unlikely to be since it is a trademarked name.

Just for fun, the original Deere spec for Special Purpose Oil Type 303 was J14C(303) and that is where the number 303 came from. It was formulated using a wax derived from sperm whale oil. Deere dropped their 303 when it became unlawful to use sperm whale oil in the 70s. They had to reformulate without it, and so HyGard came to be the replacement. Which is superior when it comes to gears and wet brakes and clutches.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Lavoy
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Lavoy » Thu May 31, 2018 9:11 am

Blade falling is almost always a cylinder problem, the seals are bypassing oil. This also causes the movement to be slow, because you are "wasting" flow so to speak.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
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Stan Disbrow
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu May 31, 2018 12:50 pm

Hi,

I did a little more digging and came up with a timeline for Deere THF lubricants.

1960-1974, J14A, aka 303
1974-1978, J14B which was an interim replacement for banned sperm whale oil
1978-1989, J20A but it doesn't appear that the name HyGard was used until 1984
1978-1989, J20B which is a lower viscosity variant of J20A
1989-present, J20C which is standard HyGard
1989-present, J20D which is low viscosity HyGard

Also, I see where the State of Missouri banned the sale of '303' labelled THF in November of 2017. So, in effect, ending the nebulous useage of just the 303 moniker without reference to meeting various manufacturer specs and saying so. The news article mentioned too many lubricant failures from generic labelled low-cost THF using only the long-dead 303 label.

Lubricants. A veritable minefield. Sometimes I think we need a new section just for discussing lubricants......

Stan

Edit: we had a meeting of our local antique farm equipment club last evening. It was mentioned that the NC legislature is discussing banning the 303 labeling of THF right now. Following suit, as it were. I suppose it won't be long before most states follow suit.
Last edited by Stan Disbrow on Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Bret4207
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Bret4207 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:59 am

Thanks Lavoy, I know the cylinders weep oil from the front seals so they probably need an R+R anyway.

Any thoughts on adding a hyd filter?
40C, 420C, 1010C-L-BH, Cat D4

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:55 am

Hi,

The rod seal weeping isn't a big deal as long as it is a drip and not a squirt. What I think is happening to you is the oil is passing the cup seal on the rod side on one cylinder. So, that is an issue requiring a rebuild and you really need to do both even if you figure out which cylinder is faulty.

On the filter, I can't think of a good way to add one to that design.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

dtoots1
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by dtoots1 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:02 am

as Stan mentioned...do both cylinders....i had same problem on my jd440 fixed one....that cost me $320...honed cylinder and rodl and new cups etc...
by the way my shop had complete set of cups/seals for $50 and i got a set for the 2nd cylinder...which i ended up doing myself.....which i could have saved big on the other one....myjd440 only pushing 600 psi right now till i get the other cam pump in and my pressure relief back to 1000 instead of th 2500 now in it...

do both and it do make a difference....long as you don't have my additional problems

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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Lavoy » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:32 pm

Won't hurt anything, but I wouldn't put it in the suction line. I put one in my 440, but rerouted the return line so I could put one in there.
Lavoy
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Stan Disbrow
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Stan Disbrow » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:31 am

Hi,

Yes, if you add a filter it needs pressure to make it work properly. So, the return line is where it would need to go. On the 440, the valve is behind the dash and I can see adding one without too much trouble. On the 420, the valve is atop the tank and looks to me like a PIA to deal with plumbing a filter into the system given the design. Probably why it doesn't have one originally - was seen as a PIA to the original design team, too. :P

Besides, they weren't into hyd filters back in those days anyway.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Bret4207
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Bret4207 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:47 am

Is there a rebuild kit available for the cylinders from Deere or elsewhere? I'm not finding anything in a quick search.
40C, 420C, 1010C-L-BH, Cat D4

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Lavoy
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Lavoy » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:46 am

Go to a local hyd shop once you have them apart, they can match up the pieces.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

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Bret4207
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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Bret4207 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:55 am

Thanks!
40C, 420C, 1010C-L-BH, Cat D4

groo

Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by groo » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:38 am

Lavoy wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 9:11 am
Blade falling is almost always a cylinder problem, the seals are bypassing oil. This also causes the movement to be slow, because you are "wasting" flow so to speak.
Lavoy
Going to disagree with that. Unless the oil in the cylinders is just dumping on the ground, the oil has to be going somewhere. It can't just go frome the rod to the base as the areas are different. You could literally drill holes through the piston, and if the ports are sealed, the cylinder won't move. If anything is drifting, it is because the valve is leaking.

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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Lavoy » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:47 am

The oil is going someplace, it is passing through the leather cup that has as split in it to the other side of the piston. Your assertion that you could drill holes in the piston and it would not move is so absurd that I won't can't even formulate an answer to that.
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groo

Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by groo » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:06 pm

Think about it more. If both ports were capped the oil couldn't just seep past because the total volume of the cylinder would change and the oil is effectively incompressible. The total volume changes by how much of the rod volume is inside the piston. That volume has to go somewhere.
Let's say the area on the base side is 2, and the area on the rod side is 1. That leaves 1 for the area of the rod. If the stroke is 10 and it is currently halfway, the volume on the base side is 5x2 or 10 and the volume of liquid on the rod side would be 5x1 or 5. Total liquid volume is 15. With 15 whatevers of liquid in the cylinder, the only position it could be is 5. If the cylinder retracted to position 2, the total volume would be 2x2 plus 8x1 or 12. If it extended all the way, total volume would be 2x10 or 20.
If you take a double acting cylinder, drill a hole through the piston and either t the ports, or just cap one, you have a single acting cylinder. Single acting cylinders don't just fall unless the liquid is let out of them.

A leaky cylinder will drift more than a nonleaky cylinder if the valve has a given leak rate, but a non leaking valve will not have a cylinder drift at all regardless of how leaky the cylinder is.

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Re: 40C vs 420C hyd pump

Post by Lavoy » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:39 pm

It is incompressible if it can not bypass the seals. But, because the seals are leaking, a certain volume will bypass the broken seal to the other end of the cylinder, and the oil can not be compressed. Differential volume from rod end to the other end has nothing to do with it.
A single acting cylinder will fall like a rock if the seals are bad, the oil will bypass to the other end of the cylinder.
By your logic, a cylinder would not need seals to work at all, and even the piston is irrelevant according to you because you can drill holes through it and it still will not fall.
Capping the ports on the cylinder is exactly the test used to see if the problem is the cylinder, or the valve. If you cap the cylinder and it falls, it is the cylinder. If it doesn't, it is the valve. I have done this more times in different applications, but primarily John Deere crawlers, than I can count. I have been rebuilding hyd cylinders to some extent for over 40 years, what you say is just not correct.
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