jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

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dtoots1
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jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Thu May 03, 2018 2:52 pm

started having trouble with 6 month old battery....ran down for some reason?? no lights left on either....put charger on for hour and only reads 6 volts..charger dial shows 50% charging...started her up and worked her about for hour ammeter reading at max charging and never moved off....either bad battery or something wrong with alternator or voltage regulator????

how test charging from alternator? course is 12 volt system ..

still having issue with blade lifting may well need to get new cylinder barrels...they rehoned the one and worked fine for a bit so suspect cylinder may be bit oversize..where can i get 2.75x3x19 cylinder barrels and cost?

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu May 03, 2018 3:35 pm

Hi,

Pull the caps while on the charger and look for cells which are producing gas at a higher rate than the others.

Sounds like you have a couple cells where some plate material has fallen to the bottom leading to a resistance across the cell plates. Common issue. But the bad cells would likely show a high H2 + O2 production.

The second test is to put in a new battery and see if the on-board charging goes back to normal. It is easier to swap out a battery to check than it is anything else. Especially since it sounds like a bad battery in the first place.

I had one, less than a year old, do this on my M last summer. Six volt, but the number of cells is meaningless if one goes bad. Well, in the case of a 6v, it isn't going to crank over at all with one bad cell. ;)

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

Jim B
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Thu May 03, 2018 4:53 pm

Good evening,

Lavoy might have a source for the cylinder tubes or a source for tube stock. If not, an outfit like one of the Parker Hannifin stores or other good hydraulic shop (Triad Technologies is a Parker dealer out near you I believe), might be able to help you. Some machine shops will get tube stock and make tubes as well. Beyond that you might find matching dimension new cylinders for less than you can get tubes made. Pricing is something I won't try to quote, it will depend on the vendors with the product.

Jim

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Thu May 03, 2018 5:48 pm

Stan.
ok latest is battery now shows 12 volt charge, but ammeter is still pegged at max..

JimB,
i sure hope can fix this issue w/hydraulics....Hydraulic shop says they cannot test my crank mount pump off diesel ..... i have worked on a 2010 that has a gauge mounted just to rear of its hyd pump...and i note that i have a similar fitting on my block just behind my pump and wonder if that is where i can test the pump pressure output...pretty hard to diagnose the problem i am having....today i put iso32 in hydraulics to see if made difference....still slow and appears to be hesitating and even maybe dropping down a bit before continuing to raise the 6 way blade...i can not tell if pump working properly but seems slower than when i got dozer....my hearing in shot but when pump moving the blade i do hear the pump and see it working....rest of story is i had 1 lift cylinder leaking and had it reworked and new gaskets etc as that appeared to be the original problem...will probably have to do the second cylinder as i do have the kit for the 2nd cylinder....
also i note that it appears that they do make oversize cups and gaskets when these get honed out up to 0.030 oversize???? will need to check with the guys that did my first cylinder an find out what they put in....

Jim B
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Thu May 03, 2018 6:57 pm

The fact that the blade lifts up says the pump is working; as Lavoy noted in an earlier post. You should be able to get a pressure reading anywhere between the discharge of the pump and the main relief valve. I would put a gauge into one of the plugged ports of the lift cylinder, you mentioned before. Apply pressure to that side of the cylinder and when the cylinder bottoms out it should show you where the relief is set. Beware, if the cup packings of either lift cylinder are bad you won't get a good reading. That will tell you if it is developing the specified pressure, or close to it. If it is not producing its rated volume the lift will be slow. You really need a flowmeter to check that properly. At some point I think you mentioned blade drifts down when the control is in the centered position, so the pump should be "out of the picture" so to speak at those times. That drift points valve or cylinder(s) issues.

As for oversize leather cups for the piston it is possible those are available but, I will admit I haven't run across them yet. You said you have the parts for the second cylinder. If it was mine the first thing I would do is get the other cylinder repacked and see what happens after that. I always did both cylinders at the same time whenever I did mine. I figured if the leather cups were gone on one side the other side wouldn't be far behind, and that is what I always found when I got them apart. For the record what blade model does your machine have, a # 64?

Jim

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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Thu May 03, 2018 8:33 pm

yes is a 64 blade model... and i will pull other cylinder off and put in the new parts etc before i do anything else. maybe can do that in a.m. and see what transpires with lift...leastways appears should be easy enough with the 4 long bolts on outside of lift cylinder

and thank you for the guidance

by the way someone mentioned repacking with cylinder on dozer and pulling the ram as a bit easier with the barrel in place??? or will this thing fall apart and loose parts that way?

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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Fri May 04, 2018 4:47 am

I pulled the lift cylinders on my # 62 blade apart in place, with the cylinder pinned it was held while I worked on it. I don't know how much easier it is but it holds the cylinder some as you work on it. With the blade on the ground I put a pan under the rod end of the barrel to catch the oil. You will likely want to at least "crack" the hoses loose to make it easier to pull and install the piston and rod assembly from the barrel. I then removed the 4 tie rod nuts on the rod gland head end. You may need to hold the rods from turning with "vise-grips" or similar. I was then able to tap the gland head from the barrel and let oil drain from that end. Then I pulled the pin from the rod. I supported the cylinder barrel with the rod lifted enough to let it pass over the boss it had been pinned to as I pulled it out. Pull the rod assembly from the barrel. When it was out, with the rod assembly on the bench, an impact wrench took the piston nut off the rod with out a problem. If you need to do it by hand and need a way to hold it, you can pin the rod back to the dozer frame to hold it while you turn the nut. With the piston off, the gland head slides off rod so you can replace the sealing parts in/on the gland head. You can separate the tube and cylinder from the cylinder base and replace the sealing parts on those. Assemble in the reverse. You don't want to break the tie rods as those will be hard to replace if you do. I have some photos of mine (same cylinder as yours I believe) apart. I can send them to you in a PM if you would like.

Jim

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri May 04, 2018 6:36 am

dtoots1 wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 5:48 pm
Stan.
ok latest is battery now shows 12 volt charge, but ammeter is still pegged at max..
Hi,

That is bad news. The pegged ammeter shows the good cells are being forced too high to get to 12v total. Each cell is 2.1v nominal (2.0v discharged, 2.2v charged, 2.3v max). So, that gets you a 12.6v nominal battery with 13.8 at the high end.

In this case, you are forcing good cells over the max while pushing against some abnormal resistance in the bad cells. For both, the extra energy will become heat and eventually the electrolyte will boil and blow out of the top of the case. It likely will deform the plastic case. This is a 440, right? With a gas tank right over the battery? If it deforms, you might get the posts up against the bottom of the tank. That is never good!

You need a new battery. I'd stop messing with that one.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Fri May 04, 2018 7:17 am

Stan,

Thanks for the info, i really appreciate all the knowledge you share and what you say sure sounds like my issue... Sure is surprising that it would go so quickly....parked it and next morning battery deader than a door nail...so back to tractor supply for adjustment....and new...

Jim B,
thank you for the nice complete explanation of how to!!! I will be out to it shortly to see how it goes...
I am sending e mail to my repair place to see what they say about oversize cups etc in re...0.030 oversize...maybe thy have em....?

lthanks to all

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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Lavoy » Fri May 04, 2018 8:41 am

Never heard of oversize cups, doubt they exist as far as these old cylinders. The leather cups in there would have that much tolerance to start with. I have honed tons of cylinders over the years and never had a problem, leather cups and low pressure is very forgiving. The cylinders are teed together, so fixing one without the other often times does no good. The diesel pump will gain you nothing over the crank pump as far as the problem you are having. Pump problem would be lack of flow or pressure.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
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original possum
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by original possum » Fri May 04, 2018 10:31 am

If you have the model with the control valve on the right fender then you had better suspect the balls in the control valve too. Will never forget a service call where wandering balls totalled the pump. The plastic (or nylon) balls do wear. It dropped a little when told to raise right before the damage.
Early 40C w/Yakima toolbar and homebuilt ripper: 350 w/6-way

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Fri May 04, 2018 5:22 pm

orig possum,
fortunately i have the 3 handles that mount thru the dash on the right hand side of it....unfortunately they tend to slip cause 2 are on tubing and the tilt is on the solid....it is the lift one that really wants to slip and set screw seems to aggravate the angle tube actuator.(the second tube inside) i still need to see if i can loosen up and clean up any debri that may be between the tubes.

JimB...
now have it back together and seems a bit better...still slow so will want to check output of pump....will know more when can work with it outside...rain rain rain.... would have been a lot easier had they given me all the O rings...shorted me one of the barrel rings and then the rod o ring they substituted one that looks like a seal with the lip...2 trips but they did take the wrong size one out and put the correct one in the boss that goes behind the end seal. they do figure that they have oversize cups etc...but with these old one like Lavoy says are really forgiving so we should be save for a bit.

yes it was a bit easier with it on the dozer but sure was stubborn getting barrel; feeder tube and bolts all lined up to get end cap back on ....and NO LEAKS!!!!

Stan,
just as info, when i tested the blade out i watched the ammeter and it still is pegged out, so will change that battery out before she blows.

Jim B
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Sat May 05, 2018 5:36 am

Morning,

Glad to hear you got the cylinder done. Does the blade hold and not drift down now that you have both cylinders refreshed? When you get the levers and tubes fixed up be sure the levers and any linkages are moving the valve spools their full stroke. If the pins and holes are worn or any rods are out of adjustment a valve might only open part way, which could slow the action of that function. Likely you have checked this already.

Jim

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Sat May 05, 2018 6:23 am

holds and no drifts! and will get actuator tubes cleaned if any...and check pins etc with helper to watch, checked but will again, little tuff doing selfie at times
on to battery exchange now

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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by B Town » Sat May 05, 2018 6:27 am

I may have suggested this before, but here we go. I have not owned or worked on your specific levers. I have seen pics before the whole pic disaster happened. In non-critical apps we have used a center punch to "knerl" both mating surfaces. This may tighten your levers. Jim and others have good advice. I'm glad you are making progress. Kindest regards, Bruce

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