jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

General help and support for your Lindeman through 2010 John Deere crawler
Post Reply
dtoots1
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 1162
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:54 am
Location: akron, ohio

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Sat May 05, 2018 5:48 pm

O.K. folks....got new battery from tsc...not charge...tested bad!!

Got to work on handle assembly and took completely apart...tswas a job..clamps inside the dash and main one on the solid rod did not want to come off without a bit of +)*&^%$#@ persuasion! found several issue...spacers between the clamps were not wide enough causing cotter key ends to interfere with the one next to each...copper tubing and plastic piping fixed that....other problem was rust and debri between the tubes and also the rod...cleaned that all up and my set screws cause enough dimple to interfere as well...worked that with my dremel....cleaned em all up and assembled and seems to be working much better in garage....will know more when get her out and working ..

JimB,
you mention plumbing gauge in end plugs....shpuld each have the same pressure?
lifted blade slowly and lifted front end of dozer but not as much as i thought it did before so will want to get more info out of that pump...

Bruce,
thanks for the additional info on the knurling. will keep that in mind should need arise...

Jim B
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2080
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am
Location: western Maine

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Sun May 06, 2018 6:39 am

Good morning,

Glad to hear things advanced on your repairs.
A gauge installed in one of the plugged ports at the end of a lift cylinder will tell you the pressure in the circuit when full pressure is applied to and the cylinder is at the end of its stroke, at full throttle. It should be the same at both cylinders as they are feed from the same source.
On 5/3 you mentioned a plugged port in the line behind your pump as a possible test point. Lavoy or someone else may have your answer to that question. I can't answer that as I don't have a manual for you model nor a machine to look at. If you have the right manual it should give you the recommended test and adjustment procedures.
It is likely slow due to wear. Lavoy may be able to help you on the pump but I believe those cam driven pumps are very hard to do much with due to lack of replacement parts. As has been noted before, changing to a crank driven pump will take some time and parts, some of which may be hard to find as well.

Jim

dtoots1
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 1162
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:54 am
Location: akron, ohio

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Sun May 06, 2018 12:21 pm

ok...what is the symptoms of air in the hydraulic system?? after having both cylinders repaired would there not be air in system???
and what is best way to bleed out???

book say raise end of cylinder and crack hose fitting....both cylinders hoses on both cylinders are on the lowest point????

User avatar
Stan Disbrow
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2894
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Stan Disbrow » Sun May 06, 2018 12:48 pm

Hi,

The air will bleed itself out in 3-4 full cycles of the rams. I have never bled one any other way. Symptoms are they act a bit jerky and when under load as if there is a spring involved (which is the air compressing).

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

Jim B
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2080
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am
Location: western Maine

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Sun May 06, 2018 12:55 pm

I agree with Stan that has been my method as well, a few full strokes and they will be fine.

dtoots1
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 1162
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:54 am
Location: akron, ohio

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Sun May 06, 2018 2:24 pm

Let me see if i can say this the right way...

First of all , As i am lifting the blade it seems that it is rising slowly (at A bit above idle speed) and then seems to stop a bit and actually lower slightly and then moves on upwards, it may do this several times before it is high enough to work around...i notice also on the corner cylinder it seems to do the same thing. also it seems to NOT want to lift the blade if against the push dirt. It seems the down pressure (where i can lift front end up of dozer) is stronger than lifting the blade??? and only lifts front end about maybe 6 inches. I don't think that i raised the blade all the way up so may have left some air in the cylinder.....by the way i kinda get the impression that my right cylinder (the one i repaired) seems to be doing more of the work of lifting as it kinda looks like the left side of blade does not start moving at the same time.

right hand cylinder has hoses..where the end plugs were located....
on the side there is plug in one and i have 2000psi gauge in the other (top) where raising the blade hydraulics run..so why would this new gauge not read pressure?

left side simply is using the side plug holes to the hydraulic lines and the end has 2 plugs in.

my gauge fitting does not fit the plug hole AS the plug is larger than the fitting for the side hole on the right cylinder.


book tells me to read pressure at one of the cylinder ports in the valve housing, where i would have to disconnect one of my hoses.

User avatar
Stan Disbrow
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2894
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Stan Disbrow » Sun May 06, 2018 4:26 pm

Hi,

The action where it hesitates as you are lifting the blade sounds like a cylinder bore is no longer smooth and some oil is passing from the front to the rear internal to the cylinder. The inside of the cylinder may be egg or hourglass shaped or both. Only way to know that is to use a bore gauge like you would inside an engine cylinder.

I am beginning to think your cylinders are worn in spots where they have performed the most work over the years. It might be time to put on new ones.

The rams will provide a lot more force downwards than upwards. The end of the cylinder with the ram is always weaker than the other end. The rod displaces oil and so the piston area is less as well. The ram end ought to move faster but have less power. This is why dozers pull up and loaders push down with the ram end.

I am not understanding why you see no pressure on a port where you had a plug. These things are simple. Oil from the control valve goes to one cylinder, out of that one and to the second, and then a plug in the second because there is no third cylinder. One hose set for Up and one hose set for Down.

Unless the 440 isn't plumbed like the 420, but I swear I remember they are the same. I guess I need to wander out to the shop and dig up my 440IC gas manual, which I have because my 420 has the differential style reverser and it is not covered in the 420 manual. The 420 plumbing I don't need a manual for as I was sitting on it earlier today. besides, the 420 has everything burned into my brain because it has been around me since 1966 (!)

Edit: Bah. I forgot. Blades and buckets are each in their own manuals back then. So, nothing there. I still think the 63 blade is plumbed the same as the 62.

My 440 IC manual is dated 9/58 so it shows only one- and two-spool valves. Loader or Dozer plus Remote cylinder. Nothing as to what feeds a 64 blade with three spools because it wasn't available yet. That needs a newer manual. All I see is the newer style integrated push/pull valve which I recalled was there. Not the older style valve which used two rods on two simpler independent spool valves which the 420 has.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

Jim B
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2080
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am
Location: western Maine

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Sun May 06, 2018 5:25 pm

Hi,

I agree your cylinder bores could be worn more in some areas than others and have some bypassing in spots.

You said you didn’t think you raised the blade all the way up when you cycled it. First cycle the cylinders fully up and down a number of times to clear any air from them. Shut your machine down and let it set a few minutes. Check the oil and add if needed, then repeat the cycling a few more times. Air remaining in the cylinders or foaming oil could affect a gauge reading as air bubbles will compress.

Stan covered the reason the down pressure is stronger, the same pressure acting on different size surface areas in the cylinder.

From looking at the parts breakdown it looks like the #64 blade on the 440 runs separate hoses from the valve to each cylinder which is different from the 420/430s. Is that correct? Likely your best location to get an accurate pressure reading will be where the hoses attach to the valve. To completely rule the lift cylinders out, unhook one cylinder’s lift hose, and hook the gauge into the valve in place of that hose (no Tee). Then remove the lift hose for the other lift cylinder and plug that port in the valve. Hooked up this way when you try to lift the blade, the pressure has to go to the gauge. (If you can’t get to the valve to disconnect the hoses you can hook the gauge directly to the hose on one cylinder and disconnect and cap the hose at the other cylinder.) If you have the rated pressure when tested this way, it points at more issues with the cylinders. Shutdown and operate the lever to relieve pressure from the gauge before unhooking. The pressure test is done at wide open throttle and holding the lever engaged to lift during the reading. Depending on the scale of the gauge you have, the blade may have been lifting easily enough that you wouldn’t see much pressure reading on the gauge when the blade was moving under no load. That said, the blade would need to be fully up and stopped while holding the control lever in lift to see the relief pressure.

Jim

Jim B
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2080
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am
Location: western Maine

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Sun May 06, 2018 5:33 pm

dtoots,

Just curious as I have seen some strange things get passed over the parts counters lately and it sounded like they gave you a quad ring instead of an O-ring when they matched up parts. Were the cups you had for the cylinder piston leather or a poly-type?

Jim

dtoots1
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 1162
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:54 am
Location: akron, ohio

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Sun May 06, 2018 5:52 pm

jim,

would have to say yes, but i don't know what a quad ring is....to describe...ring shaped but inner facing has lip like a seal, also note that it has a fluted oring type filler? that actually fits inside a groove made in the piece and is actually flat on 3 sides.

cups appear to be leather as are not smooth plastic like look

ah soooo says the blind man...i see now why down pressure would be greater.

i haven't counted the number of hoses that are attached to the valve, i will have to trace the left side over to that cylinder to see if i can even get to that hose at the valve....seems like to be 8 to 10 hoses connecting at the valve....if i can get to do that will an end plug or side plug fit the valve feed to the other hose??

will probably have to go to hydraulic shop to get proper fittings and for gauge fitting.

is 2000 psi oil filled gauge

Jim B
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2080
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am
Location: western Maine

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Sun May 06, 2018 6:10 pm

A quad ring is like an O-ring but the sides, top, and bottom are hour glass shaped so it looks like lips when installed. The seal for the rod in the gland head is supposed to be an O-ring and separate backup ring/washer in the groove with it.

I should clarify the last cups I got were not actual leather but were a rubberized fabric which simulates leather in that it looks more like leather and the lips are soft and pliable, not a hard poly material. Sounds like they gave you the right ones.

I don't know if the plug from the cylinder will fit the valve port. All I can do is look at the parts book on line and see what it shows. There appears to be a problem there, like Stan had with his books, I have not found the 3 way valve and controls to look at in the 440IC book; only the single and two spool valves. It may be easiest to do the tie in and plugging at the cylinder ends of the hoses.

An oil filled gauge is good.

Jim B
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2080
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am
Location: western Maine

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Sun May 06, 2018 6:36 pm

Ok, took a look at the parts books on line. It appears the hoses to the cylinders are all 3/8 NPT. The plugs in the right hand cylinder show as 3/8 NPT. The left hand cylinder shows the plugs as 1/2 NPT. On the valves I can see on line (none are 3 spool) they ran all the hoses back to the valve and have a 90 degree double port union connector at each port of the valve for the hoses to connect to.

Again that is what the book shows and you will need to verify on your machine. Do your hoses thread directly into the cylinders with no swivels at the cylinders? If that is the way it is plumbed, the only swivels, to be able to unhook the hoses, are at that double port union at the valve.

That's the best I can tell from resources I have available.

User avatar
Lavoy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 10936
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:32 pm
Location: North Dakota
Contact:

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Lavoy » Sun May 06, 2018 7:17 pm

Usually when a blade will not work in one direction or the other, it is because the corresponding cup is broken. You could remove the forward cups from both lift cylinders, and still have down pressure, just not lift as the oil will bypass the "down pressure" cup. If you have not replaced cups in both cylinders, this is undoubtedly your problem.
In almost 30 years of doing this, I have never had a barrel with "wear". There is no metal contacting the barrel, and hence nothing to wear it. The cups cover the metal discs on the end of the ram so they never contact the barrel. I have seen corrosion in the barrels, but not wear. Even if there was wear, the way the cups are they will simply expand to match the bore diameter where they are traveling. Poor analogy, but a piston ring does not simply stay the same diameter from top to bottom in a worn cylinder, neither does a cup type leather or synthetic seal in a hyd cylinder.
To test pressure, hook a pressure gauge to a line coming directly out of the hyd valve, or screw it directly into the valve, and pressurize that port. Anything else will or may cause an error in reading. Post in the valve assuming you have a factory valve are 1/2" NPT. Either adapt the gauge to that size, or hook it to a short piece of hose with 1/2" NPT male threads and thread it into one port in the valve.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

dtoots1
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 1162
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:54 am
Location: akron, ohio

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Sun May 06, 2018 10:15 pm

Lavoy,

Have replaced all parts in both cylinders, which is why i need to test for pressure from the pump and understand that i also need to check with flow meter...dont know if anything worthwhile in that line would be at Harbor Freight???

I know with all the guys knowledge out there that answers are available just have to be patient to get em... an what you say does make a lot of sense as i note that the cups actually have metal discs which are inside the lips so very minor metal wear from that action....was just a couple small spots of rust at the down pressure side of the barrel that i just redid, which i very carefully honed thru the entire barrel and cleaned up before assembly with lots of oil.

any chance you would know why the right cylinder with gauge in the side port does not read pressure?

User avatar
Stan Disbrow
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2894
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Stan Disbrow » Mon May 07, 2018 6:12 am

Hi,

I have to add that I have never seen bore wear in our kind of service. I saw some in industrial manufacturing useage, where the cylinders are cycled several times per minute, all day, every day. But, the rough action described is exactly what such wear looks like. So, it immediately rang a bell with me and I mentioned it in the FWIW dept.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 53 guests