jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

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Jim B
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Fri May 11, 2018 2:43 pm

Assuming that is a Vickers valve, from what you have posted for numbers, and we have found on the web, it looks to me like it closely resembles what they call their CM line for mobile equipment now. There is an online manual for Vickers CM valves (you may have found this, if you haven't try searching Vickers CM valves and you should find it). It appears they sell preset relief cartridges for them from 500 to 3000 psi, available in 250 psi increments. There maybe a number stamped in the cap you loosened that be the psi rating or a part number a hydraulic shop can use to identify it. The manual mentions an optional external adjustable relief that allows up to a 250 psi adjustment below the main preset relief valve.

I do not have an answer on your crank driven pumps. A thought would be the diesel had a blade and didn't need as much volume as compared to the loader, so would be a smaller pump. As far as pressure a relief valve controls that. Pumps have been known to split as they often can develop pressure enough to damage something. I have seen new pumps destroyed when a relief valve had been cranked up for an old pump and not backed off before the engine was started with the new pump. I wouldn't say the size of drive arrangement between the crank and the pump is a safe indication of the pumps capacity. I know on at least some of the wheel tractors JD ran the same drive arrangement for different volume pumps that could be used on the same tractor; and the pressures were the same for the tractor regardless of the pump used. I would recommend staying with your cam driven pump if at all possible. What ever you do do a pressure check before you dead head your blade functions.

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri May 11, 2018 2:51 pm

Hi,

Vickers valves usually use a dual-stage relief valve. First one lets a little thru and if it isnt't enough then the main one opens. This reduces pressure waves in the system which can be worse than going too high in the first place. But, these units are used in large machines, or at least this is where I am used to seeing them. Big manufacturing machines and the like. I have a Vickers be-all tell-all manual from the late 1960s when they were part of Sperry Rand. I used that as a reference for manufacturing lines. So, maybe they also offered stuff more our size not covered by that book.

You wanna see odd looks on faces? Have the electrical engineer know things about mechanics, hydraulics and pneumatics. :P

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Fri May 11, 2018 7:18 pm

ok....here is where i am at currently...
i changed my hydraulic oil back to my straight 20w.....it produces the same pressure between 600 and 700 psi....it raising blade slow but does go up all the way....down pressure seem ok..raise front end....not as high as i like but it will do job....there is NO hesitation raising either way....for the time being i am using my cam pump....

i also engineered a work around on the blade lever control.....bent a new rod to the valve and outside of my hood, used a smaller diameter rod and it was just a bit bendy so reinforced with a flat piece of steel....lever remains on the tubing shaft without set screw and locking cap screw in loose so will probably wear my tube down more....i will have to go to steel supply to see if can locate both tubes and rods to match, then i can go back.

i will look more into checking on the relief valve....but to tell the truth, when i pulled that cap it startled the crap out of me as i was not expecting spring loaded tension on it, by luck it didn't get loose and blow clean out of the dozer shed....

thanks to both of you guys for that info....now to run down parts for rebuild on that dang pump....dang thing looks just like my 40s wheeled tractor hydraulic pump...which i got a complete rebuild from local ma deere.....about 5-6 years ago....but i don't know what pressure that one gives....

thanks again
dtoots1

Jim B
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Sat May 12, 2018 5:55 am

I believe you need a pump from a 420 series or newer. Stan or Lavoy can likely answer for sure, but I believe the inlet size was increased starting with the 420s and the gpm was more, based on other posts from them. Lavoy was recently corresponding with someone who had a similar pump question and covered this I believe. The pumps are different part numbers as well as one line connector as well, if you check the parts books pumps for those models. Lavoy maybe able to help you with the right pump or parts.

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Stan Disbrow » Sat May 12, 2018 6:11 am

Hi,

The 420 pump has a greater flow than the 40 pump and so it has a larger inlet line. I don't recall that it changed during the life of the 440.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Lavoy
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Lavoy » Sat May 12, 2018 11:19 am

There never has been a rebuild kit for the cam pump. Gears are obsolete, but I have only taken apart a handful of pumps that were bad enough to need them.
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Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
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dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Sat May 12, 2018 12:09 pm

well does any other tractor model cam pump fit the 440? if can even find one..

ran dozer a bit today seems to work ok...just slow lift

Jim B
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Sun May 13, 2018 5:06 am

420s, 430s wheeled and crawler as well as the 440 I wheel tractor should have the right cam pump I believe.

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Sun May 13, 2018 9:46 am

well lets see if anyone on site has any of these animals that will fit mine and how much cost involved???

anyone got any that work??

JimB...tried to look up the pressure relief valve for the vickers cm.....nothing i see pulls up info regarding the pressure relief valves available...see vickers valves and places that want to work on them but no parts listings?. gotta look some more at valve see if any way to identify for sure..

found more numbers on the outside facing the track....435582 underneath that is DL21 and a logo with H inside a heart shape...will see what that finds..
also has a BC or RC below these numbers


EDIT,,,
no luck with the new numbers etc..
thanks
dtoots1

Jim B
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Sun May 13, 2018 12:12 pm

dtoots1,


Below is a link to the Vickers mobile equipment valves manual I found using the numbers you found on your valve. This is the document that references the preset relief valves they use. It appears they are not field adjustable from this document. You can see if it matches what you have, from your description it looks like it might.

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/ ... l_1987.pdf

Jim

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Lavoy
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Lavoy » Sun May 13, 2018 2:33 pm

Looks to my like you will need to order a 1000PSI relief valve.
Lavoy
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dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Sun May 13, 2018 2:55 pm

yup and now to figure out just which one of these valve numbers is the correct one to order for.....

the pics in the pdf file do appear to be exactly the body style that is on my dozer...pdf doesn't specify just which number applies to which pic

will see what eaton shows to help

thanks JimB and Lavoy
appears to be cm control valve

one other thing the books mentions 1040 to 1080 psi....so should i get a 1250psi relief valve, there seems to be additional relief valve application that can be controlled externally to limit at less than the 1250 to protect the system...or will simply 1000psi be better/safer???and simpler

Jim B
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Sun May 13, 2018 4:54 pm

Buying a new relief cartridge should eliminate the pressure question, I would think 1000 psi would do for your needs with out adding the adjustable relief they mention in the manual, just my opinion.

It would be a long shot, but the right hydraulic shop might have a way to test your present relief valve or Eaton/Vickers might have a method they might share. I have tested field tested relief cartridges on large excavators, using holders we made that matched the valve body bores (so pressure was applied to the right location and it was able to dump when it reached its setting) the cartridges screwed into. The relief cartridge was removed from the control vale and installed in the holder. A port-a-power pump with a gauge was used pressurize the valve to check the cracking pressure. This was mainly done for port relief valves but could do a main relief cartridge as well with the appropriate holder (The shop did both on spare control valves they rebuilt, the same way). If you are dead headed with the gauge you don't need a lot of oil flow to check cracking pressure.

In theory you could plumb a port-a-power into the inlet line of your valve, in place of the line from the cam pump, and use the port-a-power to see when the relief valve, currently in your control valve opens. You will have to lock or hold the control lever engaged while you pump the port-a-power.

Another thought would be to have someone with a flowmeter set up, test your pump right on your machine to see what the pump is actually doing.

Likely no option will be cheap.

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Lavoy
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Lavoy » Mon May 14, 2018 10:41 am

Definitely no on 1250, if you put in a 1250, you will get 1250. Pressure relief sets system pressure. If they have them in 50 PSU increments I would get a 1050.
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dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Mon May 14, 2018 10:55 am

sounds about right...am checking with shop see what/if available..have source for mother pump but would certainly like to get this pressure relief cleared up...gonna see if i take it out can they bench test it. and cost?

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