jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

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Jim B
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:18 pm

An air leak can cause problems but it doesn't sound like that is the whole of your problem. Does your suction line to the pump still have the fittings, I see in the parts book, which seal using a rubber packing ring or did they get changed to something else over time? If they use the packing rings I would get rid of the silicone and put in new packings. Either way I would get rid of the silicone even if it meant changing the suction line.

Jim B
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:07 pm

I would be suspicious of your "new" pump if things worked, even marginally when you reinstalled our old pump (with no other changes). If it was just an air leak it would seem the old pump, like the "new" pump, would not work at all.

Also, I don't believe the diesel starter is the same as your gas engine starter.

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:49 pm

am not sure of it being original fitting/suction line....the silicone is simply over the topside of the fitting and i make sure that i allow full drying time before i try anything. it actually appears to be a flared fitting.

it simply appears to me that the pump just aint producing....and what is the whirring noise telling me...book says to adjust pressure to 1050 to 1080psi and mine is not original and now has 1000psi pressure relief valve in it. long as noise aint hurting that is fine.

only other thing i can do is take the silicone off and see if pressure drops or stays same..

so looks like i have a starter for sale...it is marked as a new starter handwritten on it with white paint and does look to be new and not dirty old. and have as well the diesel engine that it belongs to, see old posts

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Stan Disbrow » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:27 am

Hi,

If it sucks air, the oil will foam, meaning air bubbles. Then it will not make pressure as the air will compress. The oil needs to be air free to produce pressure. Shouldn't need to use sealant on the suction line fitting, but we all know how these things go. If it were used, then it was probably to 'fix' an air leak.....

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:24 am

ok i went out and removed the silicone from the fitting ......run pressure test and still get the 600psi....so apparently no leak there....also no oil leak at the pump or anywhere else..pulled the dipstick and nice clear clean hyd oil...aw32..looked down tube and no foamy in reservoir....so can't be nothing but the dang pump????

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Stan Disbrow » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:39 pm

Hi,

AW32 is using the ISO viscosity index and is going to be too thin for the old gear pumps. That is like SAE 10. ISO 46 is next and is also too thin as it is like SAE 15. I would go to ISO 68 which is like SAE 20. And, that might be why it isn't producing as much pressure as it ought to. Oil squishing backwards between the gear teeth. If this is the case, no pump is going to do well.

If it were me, I would use a thicker oil. Well, I do in both my M and 420c with the old gear pumps. SAE 20, or ISO 68. Comes from an oil jobber for me as the local 'farm stores' have only ISO 32 and 46 on hand - along with pallets of pails of yellow buckets with green '303' on them which I would only use as a flushing oil. ;)

I know neither of mine like using HyGard for it being too thin, and that is about ISO 46 / SAE 15. At one time I had this idea of getting more use out of the HyGard drained every 500 hours or so from a modern machine. You know, clean looking still. So, I let it sit for a couple months and gravity strain then used it in the old iron. Instant loss of lift capacity and whining gears in the pump. Ok. Bad idea. Now I just keep it for use as a flushing oil if need be. As in 2 pails worth from the last time. If I haven't used it come next change, then off to the recycle tank.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

dtoots1
2010 crawler
2010 crawler
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:54 am
Location: akron, ohio

Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:39 pm

ahh so says da blind man, i see your point....i do have some 20 wt non detergent i can try again, just to see if i get a difference till our buddy Lavoy gets me a rebuilt one, a bit pricey but if i can use my free 10 gallons of iso 32 in it then thats o.k.....but i did have the 20w in before i rebuilt my cylinders and didn't see a difference, tho we now know why...leaking cups or whatever..

let me know again if straight 20w non det should be ok.

so is that what my pump is doing? whining???

well i went out and changed it to the 20w did get a slight increase in pressure kinda between 700and 800psi.

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Stan Disbrow » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:25 pm

Hi,

Yes, 20w ND will be OK. Back in the day that is what was used. The old manuals call for using what you had in the engine as you chased the temps up and down with the seasons. But, all oil was additive free back then so it mattered not that you used motor oil in the hydraulics. These days, don't try and use detergent motor oil in hydraulics. It will foam up for sure.....

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

dtoots1
2010 crawler
2010 crawler
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:54 am
Location: akron, ohio

Re: jd440ic hydraulic pump

Post by dtoots1 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:00 am

ok...i'm baack!!
now for the rest of the story.....gonna have Lavoy rebuild my cam pump....so had to take off my old pump...which still producing about 700psi and replaced it once again with the 'new' pump just to check it out once again......it produces absolutely nothing!!! am waiting to hear back from the seller.

so time once again to hurry and wait.

dtoots1
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:54 am
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:36 am

ok so while waiting for rebuilt pump....my "new" pump was replaced with claims to be a working pump off another dozer to replace my new pump...now that aint working so considering what issues may else be causing problems..
i decided to dig a bit and have taken off the hose running from top of tank to the 3 spool vickers control....that comes into a vertical standing pipe fitting...looking down into the 3 spool this fitting, i think, should be full of oil...should it not??? is the issue here...the pressure line goes in at bottom of 3 spool and suction line comes in at front top of tank....what is the line that runs from top of tank to the vertical pipe fitting that is not full of oil? is that bypass oil back to tank and would oil be present (full pipe)?

Jim B
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:33 am

Not including the lines out to the cylinders from the control valve. There should be a line from the tank to the pump inlet (suction). Any leak in that line would allow air to enter. Then a line from the pump to the control valve (pressure). There should be a return line from the control valve back to the tank to allow oil not used to operate a function, or from relief valve once operating pressure is reached, to return to the tank (basically allowing low pressure circulation). I think that is the line you are looking at. My thought is; depending on the configuration (location of valve to tank and hose routing) and where you opened it, it may or may not be full of oil when you get it open to look into. Opening a fitting would have allowed air in and the oil could drain away from that point in some cases. Just my thoughts without seeing it.

This is just a thought but is there a chance there is something "floating around" in your hydraulic tank? Another thought is a possible issue with the pick up pipe inside the tank. I don't know how it is configured inside the tank, so these are just thoughts. I don't think they are valid as it seems you had some pressure with your original pump and everytime you re-installed it you got some function back as compared to your replacement pumps. It seems your set up is a one of a kind. Given you said earlier at least one fitting had silicone on the outside of it; do the fitting types all match at connections? I have seen some fittings and adapters screw together but not seal properly. I would check the lines and fittings closely, then wait for the rebuilt pump from Lavoy and see what it does.

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:50 am

JimB,
Thanks for confirmation of my thinking...i did check with shop to see what cost was to inspect/test the vickers...est 1hr for cost of $125, so that will wait too!!
considering that everything basically remains the same as when i tok my pump off, i will wait and test again when i get my rebuilt back. If issues arise then i will dig deeper.
it only takes 1 unknown (pump) to be unable to discern what issues involved and make wonder if other issues..

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by dtoots1 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:42 am

ok...so after getting set to take pump off again i disconnected the suction line at the pump and the fitting comes off the end....so looking at it consists of sleeve with flat o ring type rubber seals on it....so i take entire suction pipe off at tank and it also has same fittings..close inspection of both of these reveals that the wider one that fits into the stationary flared fittings seem to be home made from rubber tubing ....so take line etc to shop and course they don't have the flat type but do have regular o rings correct size and the one flat for shoulder at top of fitting around the pipe....reassemble tighten and try pump again...still no pressure....so that too is now on way to Lavoy. we will see what that reveals.

remember i got this with both fittings with silicone around both top ends of these fittings....so am assuming there was some type of air leak for p.o
suction lie is tight

Jim B
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Re: jd440ic charging issues & hyd cyl issues

Post by Jim B » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:55 pm

Hi dtoots1,

If you have the original suction line between the tank and pump and want to get the original parts. The packing sleeves, for both ends of that line, to go in those fittings are JD # M3189T (.844" ID, 1.125 OD, .625" long, 80 durometer HYCAR material, not cheap - about $18.75 each). Those are supposed to be available from John Deere as well as the copper gasket (JD # M3192T, subs to A521R - about $7.75 each) to go under the suction line fitting where it threads into the pump. I got a couple sleeves about a year ago for the 430 I had and from what I can see through my JD account login one of my local dealer's stores currently has 3 of those and 2 of the copper washers. Lavoy may have them as well. The fittings themselves and the nuts show as no longer available. It sounds like you may have the original fittings and line that someone in the past used quad rings, from the way I interpret your description of what was in the fittings, in place of the proper sleeves. Your 440IC parts book should show you the set up. Good luck, Jim

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