jd440ic cam pump

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Lavoy
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Re: jd440ic cam pump

Post by Lavoy » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:29 pm

Filter has to go in return line, not suction. It will just exacerbate any air leak.
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Jim B
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Re: jd440ic cam pump

Post by Jim B » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:28 am

Lavoy has an excellent point on the filter location. It might have worked, but it should be in the return to the tank.

To me it would appear someone made/reworked the line to install the filer there. From your photos it appears the metal sleeve, O-rings, and quad ring were captured under the nut, inside the pump fitting. That may be an acceptable replacement but my thought is that should be the rubber sleeve shown in the parts book, not any of those pieces; multiple pieces equals multiple chance of leaking. I think the correct sleeve will compress and seal better than what you have there. Is the copper sealing washer under the fitting where it tightens into the pump housing? Did they do the same in the tank end fitting nut? What did they use for fittings at the filter housing? It looks like maybe pipe thread fittings, soldered or brazed to the tube ends. If your valve, and maybe the alternator, aren't blocking the routing of the original tube, I would see if Lavoy, or someone, has a good used original tube with the right seals. I would install an original line if possible to eliminate the filter housing and its related connections which could allow air to enter. If I needed to reuse the existing tube I would remove the filter housing and make sure whatever I used to take its place had tight, secure connections. A filter is good but was not standard equipment on these machines, so it should not be an issue to remove it completely. Just my thoughts.

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Re: jd440ic cam pump

Post by dtoots1 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:09 am

ok lets see if Lavoy may have a good suction line? and what cost? what info is needed, overall length? and do away with filter? and other than that i assume the filter should actually be on the pressure line with filter housing mounted stationary and pressure hoses to and from filter.

you both mention 'in the return to the tank' are you talking the bypass line back to tank, for the filter? the suction line runs from tank and pressure line runs to 3 spool valve

also are there fittings that can be used to change to connect direct with hose, from tank to pump? since is really a low pressure line? i certainly want to fix this before i ruin my "new" pump, once i get it.

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Re: jd440ic cam pump

Post by Stan Disbrow » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:30 am

Hi,

There is a return line from the spools back to the tank. When not actually operating a cylinder the pressurized oil from the pump is passed via the open spools back to the tank. The filter must be in this line. It takes pressure to push the oil thru the filter element. You don't want it in the pressure line before the spools as it will slow down the cylinder operation. Having it in the sump return means it filters when you are not using the system for anything.

If you have the filter in the suction line from the tank to the pump, the flow reduction of the filter element with the oil will set up a high vacuum in the line between the filter and the pump. That will cause an air leak. Those line seals are not capable of withstanding the vacuum level generated. This explains the sealant someone used. They were trying to fix the issue they caused by installing a filter in the wrong place. It probably also explains why you have incorrect bits in there as well. Probably their first attempt at sealing off an air leak.

An air leak, even a small one, will foam the oil. That will lead to very slow and weak cylinder operation, if it operates at all. Air compresses, so you can't have any at all in with the oil.

It seems to me that someone had good intentions with their modifications but rather missed their mark.....

The original design did not use a filter. You might want to think about why the Deere designers did not incorporate one. I have this idea that they probably tried during R+D and decided against having one. Like maybe the cam pump operates poorly with one? I would get a proper suction line and put it back the way it was with a new pump, myself.

Stan

Edit: I had mentioned that the return line is a pressure line, and thought to change that. Yes, it is under pressure, but only a fraction of what the real pressure line is under when the system is being used. Normally, the system is under fairly low pressure everywhere when it isn't being used because the spools are open when in their center position.

Edit 2: The question now is what is that open-center pressure as designed, without a filter restriction in the return line, and what does it climb to with a filter? And, what does the extra pressure mean to the cam driven gear pump? This was probably known during the original R+D phase and I suspect the answer is why they didn't incorporate a filter in the first place.
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Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
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Re: jd440ic cam pump

Post by Jim B » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:06 am

Hi dtoots1,

Yes what you call the bypass line is what I call the return line.

They do make special high pressure filters which can be used on the pressure side of a pump; but the filter you have does not appear to be that type. Too further Stan's reason for not putting a filter in the pressure line; I would say DO NOT put your filter in a pressure line as it may burst when operating pressure is developed. Most of the type of filter you have, that I have used, are only rated for about 100 psi, if you check the filter specs. The return line dumps open ended into the tank so the pressure in that line is low, that is why a filter like that will work there if rated for the flow.

It may take a bit of doing to change to a hose in place of the suction line. I don't know that the tank end can be changed without reworking the tank and you would need to match the threads and sealing arrangement where the fitting goes into the pump. Someone may have better answers to this part of your question. If it where mine I'd go back to the original line and seals if possible.

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Re: jd440ic cam pump

Post by dtoots1 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:48 am

ok guys..those are the answers that i had anticipated....will edit further i have answer from Lavoy to check out.

Pump is ready!!! and second pump needed new gaskets/seals as old hardened.

Gonna eliminate that filter in that line will see what it would take to plumb to the return line...it is towards driver seat with quite a bit of room, if can find place to mount filter boss (later!). Hoping Lavoy has usable suction line or any volunteers that may have, ifn he don't.

Knew some of you guys would have answer as to why problems!!!

Thanks!!!!

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Re: jd440ic cam pump

Post by Stan Disbrow » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:39 am

Hi,

I am really hoping all this comes together and works. Well, not as much as you are! Obviously! ;)

One of the biggest issues with Old Iron is that POs have done odd things that wind up with *you* PO'd, so to speak. :P

In this case we have a PO changing valves, the bypass, cutting lines, adding stuff that wasn't originally there, and who knows what else which hasn't come to light. All that on top of things which may or may not be just plain worn out. Sheesh!

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic cam pump

Post by dtoots1 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:26 pm

well is a learning experience and not only for me, am sure others on this board appreciate the knowledge that the rest of y'all contribute...mostly it really comes down to the old computer m.o.....kiss...."keep it simple stupid"!!, which obviously i missed!

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic cam pump

Post by dtoots1 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:35 am

ok so at some point in time i may want to have my levers directly mounted to my vickers valve, which means replumbing etc...my question is...does anybody out there have 3 of the vickers levers available?

as mentioned in earlier post set up is using the dash mount bushing for my 3 levers and the lever clamps actually wore the tubing to the point they had continued to slip...under the dash is 3 additional clamps for the rods to reach to the valves, which also have been slipping.

had new tubing and solid shaft made to fit again but figure they too will slip at some point, so would like to eliminate and mount direct at valves

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Re: jd440ic cam pump/hydraulic lines

Post by dtoots1 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:40 am

Lavoy and any others,

Just out of curiosity , being as my original hydraulic reservoir and suction line is being such an issue (with the fitting) , i wonder if i could use the tank i have from a crank pump (off diesel jd440), if i can use hoses direct to the cam pump? should be able to get a fitting at the cam pump to fit, i would think... i do have a diesel hood that should fit and it has the access door for the front loading reservoir, tho i have to see what it takes to mount, reservoir, to the front of my gas job. be a bit of long reach for the bypass/return line but that should not be too much of issue.

tank measures 3.5x11x19.5

what say you?

edit...i also have a front loader gas engine that had a crank pump on it, with front engine mount...though i don't know exactly where the hyd tank was mounted

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Re: jd440ic cam pump

Post by jackhdn » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:43 am

Hi,

I've been following your thread and have had similar problems with that compression fitting on the cam pump. On my 440 I have a cam pump and a pto pump driving a hydraulic winch. The pto pump has a dedicated tank on the fender holding about 8 gallons. I was going to do away with the small tank and then add a nose tank from a 440 loader until I actually mounted that tank. Wow is it tight up there! I decided to make a new tank to go where the small one did in front of the brake pedal and then plumb the 2 tanks together.

I made a tank out of a piece of tube 6x8x18. It holds just under 3.5 gallons and fits very nicely right where the old one was. I could not find any adapter to change that fitting on the cam pump so I brought that brass fitting to a machinist and he made me one. Cam pump thread on one end, 1" male pipe on the other. That original steel suction line is about 15/16". A 3/4" suction would probably have been ok but my suction line is going to have a few 90 degree fittings in it so I kept the size at 1" to reduce restriction and heat. This tank is plumbed to the larger tank on the fender.

At the same time I replaced the original worn out valve with a 2 spool Chief joystick valve (2nd spool for future tilt). Going this way I needed to add a relief valve as it is hard to find a valve which will bypass at a low enough pressure for the old pump. Valve returns through a filter to the fender tank.

I can't say how this works yet as the engine is out for rebuild but will update once I have it going. None of this is original styled but my machine is a working tool and not a collectible.

Jack

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Re: jd440ic cam pump

Post by dtoots1 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:34 am

Jackhdn,
mine too is a working machine! taint pretty but i sure do want it to work...mine is a 6way blade and appears that i need a 3 spool valve to do it...oncet i get it all back together (from Lavoy) i will find out what i am going to need to do....if it works don't fix it! If it don't i will do the same as you and get my own fitting made for the pump, for info, did you need to use the copper washer under your new fitting? and did you use brass for the fitting ? As you can see it is very frustrating to have the lever loose and air leak making difficult to control the blade.

presumably you made all new steel suction line to the pump and fitting? did you connect to the original tank and its fitting? or fix that too?

I see where question was raised about filter on the return line might possibly create a pressure variance in regards to the the pump....original did not incorporate a filter, so i am inclined to leave that alone and strive to keep a clean environment when replenishing etc...manual even says to filter or clean new oil when refilling? taint supposed to be contaminated at that point!!!(NEW)

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: jd440ic cam pump

Post by Stan Disbrow » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:32 pm

Hi,

Oil may have been contaminated when new back in 1959. You had to carry your own can to the oil yard, where they filled it from a bulk tank. Which, in turn, had been filled from a bulk truck which was filled from a bulk tank at the rail yard. And, the rail yard tank had been filled from a train car which was filled at the refinery. Lots of nozzles stuck into large openings where entire hordes of bugs could fly thru....not to mention dirt.

It wasn't until the 50s that sealed containers became readily available. But, most didn't buy it that way to save some money. Just like today where folks buy '303' oil at (insert favorite low price retailer here) rather than buy HyGard from the Deere dealer. And, just like today, it took a law banning something to get the habits to change. Anyway, the manual is just acknowledging a problem which may have been present.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

dtoots1
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Re: jd440ic cam pump

Post by dtoots1 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:26 pm

Stan,
Thanks for the jog in my memory! i now remember that well ...just think of the oil cans used at the gas stations then, where they had to swivel down the oil spout to add oil to your engine...open container too!...kinda looked like a teapot

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Re: jd440ic cam pump

Post by jackhdn » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:06 pm

dtoots1 wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:34 am
presumably you made all new steel suction line to the pump and fitting? did you connect to the original tank and its fitting? or fix that too?
New tank. Eliminated the original completely. New adapter was made out of brass (for ease of machining) and yes using copper washer with it. No steel tube at all. Regular pre-made hydraulic hose. I'll post pics once it is complete and working.

Jack

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