Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch - includes pictures

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Paul Buhler
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Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch - includes pictures

Post by Paul Buhler » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:34 pm

Hi:
I'm finally ready to dig further into my winch. I am having an issue with the winch winding in on its own when under load, causing me to think that my inner bearing(s) are failing. I have the spider off, brake band and clutch off, and am looking at the side of bearing number 30 on the schematic (supposedly # 6211rsnr when replaced) I can pry the clutch/brake drum up and down easily indicating a worn out bearing(s).

From what I've read and from various comments, I need to remove the drum which can be a challenge.

It looks like the winch drum sits on two bearings (#30), and can be driven off towards the clutch side without opening the crown gear and pinion side of the winch. Am I correct in this interpretation?

Will the drum slide off the crown gear side bearing, or will the drum and bearing usually move as a unit?

I have an air chisel with a blunt end, an acetylene torch, and assorted blocks and big hammers to assist.

I still have to take the cable off the drum and then get started.

Any thoughts or advice will be appreciated. Thanks. Paul

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Last edited by Paul Buhler on Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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Re: Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch

Post by Paul Buhler » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:25 pm

Well, It took more time to compose my last post than to disassemble the winch drum. Once the cable was off the drum, I started tapping on the drum with a ballpeen hammer to loosen things up, and the next thing I know, the drum was sliding off the inner bearing and off the main shaft. Spooky, way too easy - hope this isn't jinxing the project.
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Once off, I was able to use a drift from the inside, and get the bearing out of the drum. It's toast, full of mud and sludge.

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Parts ready for cleaning and re-assembly I'll be using some epoxy on the spider's splines when I re-assemble to take up some slop. Notmeu sent me a sample of what he used when he did his winch - thanks Tom. BTW, found our emails from when you rebuilt your winch. It's handy having part numbers, approximate prices and your thoughts.

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Still would like to hear some of your thoughts as I wait for a new bearing - the inner one is still good, although not sealed. May buy a replacement for this one too while it's easy to get to now. depends on how pricey these are.
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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Re: Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch

Post by Lavoy » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:31 pm

I would replace any bearing that is in any way questionable, now is the time to do it.
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Re: Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch

Post by notmeu » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:48 pm

Yes Paul I agree with lavoy 100%. Now is the time to do it, I would even remove the winch from your Deere and replace the bearings on the input shaft in the winch. Super simple bearings to replace and they were cheap!
1956 JD420, gearmatic 8a winch, custom 6 way blade and FOPS.

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Re: Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch

Post by Paul Buhler » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:05 pm

Thanks for your responses guys. I've ordered new bearings - two: 6211 2rs np, and one 6210 2rs, to replace those that are currently exposed - my winch shows evidence of having been reworked/rebuilt at some recent point before my purchase, so I don't want to dig into the crown gear section at this time. Now I need some advice on how best to remove the inboard shaft bearing without damaging the seal. I guess that destroying the bearing is an option since I have a replacement, so levering against the case would work, but I'm open to other ideas. My puller doesn't have long enough arms for this task. If I do damage this seal, what is its replacement number? Thanks. Paul
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Re: Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch

Post by notmeu » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:22 pm

Paul, is the bearing that you are talking about item #30 in the parts manual?
1956 JD420, gearmatic 8a winch, custom 6 way blade and FOPS.

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Re: Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch

Post by Paul Buhler » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:50 pm

Yes. When I broke down my drum, it appears that I need a lock ring on the outboard bearing, and don't on the inboard bearing. Any thoughts Tom? Thanks. Paul

update: used two "lock-ring bearings as the manual indicated.
Last edited by Paul Buhler on Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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Re: Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch

Post by Paul Buhler » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:59 pm

Winch parts are all cleaned up and oiled where appropriate, and oil- free where appropriate. Waiting to re assemble when bearings arrive. Any thoughts on what I should do to replace the missing felt in the spider assembly? I'm thinking to just pack in some really stiff grease to keep things sliding over time while keeping in mind that oozing grease around the clutch and brake bands can cause problems. Please share your thoughts and experience. Thanks. Paul

update: used some carpet underlayment felt cut to size and greased. Fit is firm, but works as expected, and grease doesn't ooze out.
Last edited by Paul Buhler on Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch

Post by notmeu » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:22 pm

Hey Paul, I think I removed that bearing by using some heat with a rosebud tipped torch on the inner race of the bearing, then used a wide flat pointed chisel punch and a BFHammer between the bearing and the end plate to remove it. I do somewhat remember that the bearing only had to move like a inch, then the shaft was thinner so the bearing slid pretty easy until the end where a bearing puller was used. Although it’s been a few years since I did my rebuild! I did have to look thru some of my old photobucket pictures to jog my memory.... Tom
1956 JD420, gearmatic 8a winch, custom 6 way blade and FOPS.

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Re: Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch

Post by JDCrawlerdog3 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:36 am

Paul,

I cut a new piece of thick felt that is used under furniture to keep the legs from scratching the floor. Thickness seemed to be perfect, with right amount of contact on the shaft, but not too tight. You can find it at hardware stores. It has an adhesive back and comes in a rectangular shape. I cut it to fit inside of the groove of the clutch yoke/lever, and then greased it. I don't think it will ooze and seems to work well to date. Also, suspect you know this trick, but use the pot warmer on a coffee maker to heat up your bearings so that they slide onto the shaft easily without cooking the bearing seals.

Andrew

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Re: Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch

Post by Paul Buhler » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:15 pm

Thanks for the info and thoughts.
Andrew, I like the coffee pot heater idea; I've used other ways to preheat bearings, but this one is easy and doesn't require a lot of energy, and doesn't over heat the bearing. I happen to have an old electric hotplate that works well too when I put a piece of metal on top of the coils, use low heat, and keep flipping the bearing to even the heat. It's surprising how low a temp works to get this task done.
Thanks too for the felting ideas. I'll do some homework.
Tom: Still thinking about the inboard bearing. I repacked it with grease, and it seems fine. I have two new sealed 62112rsnp bearings (#30 on the schematic) on the way as well as the clutch cover bearing 6210 2rs. In the meantime, I'm researching the availability of the oil seal - federal Mogul 455434. Thanks again guys. Paul

Update: found numerous seals for about $15. Bought a Timkin, it's on its way.

Next challenge while reassembling is to get the internal fluid lines updated and sealed properly. The short nipple and 22* fitting are pretty rusted. Found replacement in stainless steel (actually cheaper than black iron). I plan on using locktite thread sealant which is designed for brake fittings, ac fittings, and other hydraulic fittings. I don't want to have any more brake fluid weaps. They are annoying and problematic. Leaking brake fluid contaminates the clutch and brake banding, and finds its way into bearings dissolving the grease which then leaches into places it shouldn't be. On to the next phase...
Paul Buhler
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420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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Re: Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch

Post by Paul Buhler » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:41 pm

Searched " gearmatic 8a" and found a lot of our discussions as many of us worked on these winches in the past. Many of the tactics I used to dig deeper were from recollections of the various posts. I try to share part numbers when I can since it saves time. Other people on this site have been very generous with their ideas, time,experiences, and solutions.
Paul Buhler
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Re: Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch - includes pictures

Post by Paul Buhler » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:42 pm

Hi: Finally got my winch back together. Rebuilt the controller. It needed a new o-ring and brake cup - 1-1/8" available at Napa. I honed the bores with a brake cylinder hone and used brake fluid as a lubricant. I used self- made paper gaskets glued one side with Permatex gasket shellac, and soaked them with oil before assembling. I was surprised to find that the last person had switched the brake side for the clutch side. I also replaced the handle shaft o-ring too.

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Last edited by Paul Buhler on Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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Re: Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch - includes pictures

Post by Paul Buhler » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:05 pm

I replaced the clutch fluid lines with new stainless steel and brass fittings, using Permatex thread sealant.
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I tried the hacksaw spacer method to adjust the clutch, but found that my clutch is eccentric, as compared to concentric, meaning that it wants to drag causing the drum to engage and reel-in when it's not supposed to. I wound up using various feeler gauges to get a go-no-go fit that allowed the clutch to "free-wheel" until engaged, but still has a close enough gap to engage and winch in as it should. This was a fiddley process requiring a few cover installs and removals as I dialed in the correct gap. Still not quite there, but at least the winch doesn't spool in when the clutch is disengaged as it did randomly in the past ( this was of major concern- I like my hands and fingers).

The winch clutch now has sufficient gap to free-wheel, and yet is close enough to have considerable "winch in" pull. The brake holds well and releases for a reasonably easy "free spool".

I'll probably take the cover off one last time and decrease the clutch gap a bit so that there is a bit more winch-in pull. I'm currently at a go, no-go gap of about .025. I'm hoping that a gap of .020 works better and still allows the clutch enough play to be safe.

Image
Paul Buhler
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420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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Re: Digging deaper into my Gearmatic 8a winch - includes pictures

Post by Ray III » Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:21 pm

Paul, thanks for all the pictures, it really helped me to understand how the thing is put together. Also thanks again to Tom for providing the literature.

My dad would preheat bearings by setting them on a 500 watt halogen shop lamp aimed upwards. When the oil started smoking, drop it over the shaft.

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