420c not shifting into gear

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420CrawlerHoller
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420c not shifting into gear

Post by 420CrawlerHoller » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:02 pm

I'm becoming more and more keen to the realization that my crawler will need some major work done to the clutch but Im posting here anyway hoping for a miracle or at least a shoulder to cry on. :)

My 420c was running real good, I had a mechanic resurrect it after it sat in my pop's barn for 15-20 years. The brake and clutch pedals were locked together and the mechanic thought that was odd but its how I remembered it being when my pop let me operate it years ago so we just left it alone.

Cleared a bunch of brush and one thing I noticed is that sometimes it wouldnt get into gear because the fly wheel was spinning when I had the pedals engaged. I would have to wait for the fly wheel to spin down, then I could get it in gear. This was intermittent. The last day, I started up the machine and could not get it in gear because the flywheel wouldnt spin down it just kept spinning. Ive been looking around on various websites and most of them seem to point to either an adjustment screw or that Im going to have to pull the engine off and rebuild the clutch.

Anyone have advice or a youtube link they would pass on about this? I havent found anything yet in my google searches so Im hoping for some knowledge in here....

thanks all. I love love love this crawler, just the sound of it brings back sweet old memories of my pops (rip).

I believe its a 1958 or possibly 1959 john deere 420c industrial yellow... though Im seeing notes on yesterdays tractors that these were only in production up to 1957. Just reading the notes my pop put on the manuals.
1957 420C Crawler / 1950(?) Massey Fergussen Tractor / 1952 International Harvester TD-24

Jim B
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Jim B » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:22 pm

First thing. Go to the FAQ section and read to 4th post down. Lavoy has serial number info there by years 1956 to 1958. Read down and you will see a photo of the serial number tag and location on a 420. See if you can find that tag on your machine and get all the numbers from it. Using Lavoy's list the serial number will identify the year for you.

You say you have found your manuals. Are they actual John Deere manuals? Please post the manual numbers, just so people know what you are looking at and compare with what they may have. Check all the external clutch linkage to see that no pins have fallen out or nothing broke. If you have the service manual it will describe how to adjust the clutch. You have nothing to lose trying to adjust it by the book if the external linkage is complete. To be sure the brakes don't effect the clutch adjustment you can unhook the rods that go back to the brakes from both sides of the foot pedal shaft to check the clutch out. If it won't adjust it will have to come apart (pull the engine) to replace the clutch and or repair the damage. In the end it will need to come apart to free the brake pedal and clutch shafts from each other anyway.

This site has a dedicated picture server. you can read about it in the Message board Q&A and Announcements section. You should contact Lavoy and get set up with a user name and password so you can use it to post photos. Sometimes it can help if you show photos of things you have questions about. HTH

Jim

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420CrawlerHoller
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by 420CrawlerHoller » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:40 pm

awesome thank you
1957 420C Crawler / 1950(?) Massey Fergussen Tractor / 1952 International Harvester TD-24

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gregjo1948
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by gregjo1948 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:56 am

You need to free up the clutch/brake shaft. You may be limiting the clutch linkage travel because the brakes may be engaging before the clutch releases. Being careful, try starting the engine with the clutch pedal pushed to see if the machine tries to move. If it does, the clutch isn't releasing and that's why you can't get it in gear when it's running.
JD 350B diesel 6way blade, Case 580B Loader/backhoe, Farmall 504 high crop w/ flail boom mower, International 404 , International 284 diesel w/belly mower, 1972 Ford F600 dump truck, Galion 3-5 roller, Allis Chalmers D17, 1620 Ford

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Stan Disbrow » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:13 am

Hi,

The clutch and brake pedals are hooked to a rod within a tube under the transmission. Sometimes the rod and tube wind up locked together due to junk and rust. You have to free that up first. The two pedals have to move independent of each other. What I think you have going on is the brakes are engaging before the clutch disengages due to a rod and tube frozen together.

Stan
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Jim B
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Jim B » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:29 am

Good Morning gregjo1948 and Stan,

A little more info about this. He first posted about this over on YT's John Deere Forum the other day. There is a bit more about what happened and the symptoms over there. From his post it is a family crawler and he wants to save it. He posted it has been run for years with the pedals frozen together. (https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/v ... ?t=1382725) He said he has manuals. I figure he can check linkages and try adjusting it, he might find a problem.

My thoughts, from the information in his YT post, is there are other mechanical issues in the clutch area, besides just the frozen pedals, I hope I'm wrong for his benefit.

Jim.

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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Lavoy » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:55 am

Free up the pedal shaft first, you are really wasting your time if you don't. I don't doubt it has been that way for a long time, but that is not the way it is supposed to be, and unless you torch off both brake rods, it will adversely affect adjusting the clutch.
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Jim B » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:50 pm

To all,

I apologize if it sounds like I was saying it is going to be possible to get the correct adjustment, with the clutch and brake shafts froze together, and be good to go. I should have been clearer on what I was thinking when I posted about trying the adjustment. He said in his other post the crawler was in a remote location and would be hard to work on. I suggested he start looking for a trailer and someone with another machine to help load it to move it to a better location to work on it. My thought with the clutch adjustment was he might get enough clutch to move it and load it under its own power. He said the clutch pedal goes to the foot rest so I don't think the brakes are holding much currently. Maybe they are already unhooked. I suppose he might also start it and warm it up, shut it down then start it in gear to move/load it, but I figured having some clutch would be best, if he could get any.

I believe he is going to need to get it to a better place than it is now so he can work on it easier. It sounds to me like it will need to be split to free the shafts and likely replace the engine clutch. Beyond that he may have to make repairs to the brake system, and maybe the steering clutches, from running this way for years.

Sorry for the confusion.

Jim

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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Lavoy » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:58 pm

I have on rare occasion been able to get them to free up with lots of penetrant, and then take the brake pedal off and see if you can get the shaft to move to the clutch pedal side. That is about all you can do remotely, but yes, still better to have it home.
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420CrawlerHoller
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by 420CrawlerHoller » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:35 pm

Im so stoked to hear from you guys. Thank you for all the input so far. Yeah I originally posted on YT but then I found this place which seems more focused on John Deere.

Yes, its in a remote location, a barn in rural San Luis Obisbo CA. I could probably tap a neighbor out there for their flatbed and haul it into town to a place called Switzer in Santa Margarita worst case scenario, Im just tight on budget but if I have to I will because this thing has been so useful in clearing out brush and like I said, it reminds me of my pops so I just love it but I really do need to create and maintain some fire buffers/breaks with it so Im being careful and using it as a tool not a toy.

I found the manuals and these are the covers.... I also found the page talking about clutch adjustment.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cfiKSO ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EYlvyl ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Auvkr0 ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/179vRf9 ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bB70bF ... sp=sharing




This is video of me dozing :) I have yet to find a pic online of this exact config and loader. Next time Im up there I will photograph the serial number plate. I thought I had already done that but apparently not. Cant find the photo if I did.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qmlKeS ... sp=sharing
1957 420C Crawler / 1950(?) Massey Fergussen Tractor / 1952 International Harvester TD-24

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420CrawlerHoller
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by 420CrawlerHoller » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:52 pm

Lavoy wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:55 am
Free up the pedal shaft first, you are really wasting your time if you don't. I don't doubt it has been that way for a long time, but that is not the way it is supposed to be, and unless you torch off both brake rods, it will adversely affect adjusting the clutch.
Lavoy
Ok will do, should I get something more than just wd40? i have some graphite penetrating oil, I dont know exactly where Im trying to get to but Im assuming the underside of the dozer.... Im also looking through the service manual and seeing that I should probably check the oil in the transmission... probably hasnt been changed in a long long time. I believe the dozer has about 500 hours on it FYI.
1957 420C Crawler / 1950(?) Massey Fergussen Tractor / 1952 International Harvester TD-24

Jim B
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Jim B » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:32 pm

PB Blaster penetrating oil and CRC's Knock'er Loose penetrating solvent are a couple good one's I've used. Kroil is a real good one if you can find it. Some people make their own using a 50/50 mix of automatic transmission fluid and acetone. That mix is highly flammable so use care if you try it. Plain old WD40 is not a real penetrating oil to me. The WD actually stands for water displacing. It helps but others are better. WD does make a penetrating oil now but I haven't tried it so can't say how it works.

Follow your clutch pedal down to where it hooks to a shaft in the side of the center housing. The brake shaft actually is inside the hollow clutch shaft on the clutch pedal side. You need to start working penetrating oil between those two shafts. You can work penetrating oil in on the brake pedal side as well. The clutch shaft does not come outside the case on the brake pedal side. If your footrest panels will come off you may be able to access the shaft from the top easier.

Are the rods that go back to the brakes, from the brake pedal shaft, hooked up? It looks like it steers fairly well in your video. I noticed a tag near the top of the loader frame upright. You should see if you can get the information off it and write it down you may need it in the future, along with the tractor serial number tag.

The SM2019 is the right manual for your 420. The SM2013 for the 40 series is good to have as there are places the 420 manual refers to info in the 40 series manual. Do you have a parts manual? If you don’t, here is a link to the old John Deere part catalog site, that is still working for now and you can find and download a copy of the parts catalog (PC505) http://jdpc.deere.com/jdpc/servlet/com. ... model=mo54. Delete the mo54 currently in the Model box and type 420 in then search. Pick the 420 tractor PC505, pdf file. You should be able to save a copy to your computer. I don’t think the new JD site will let you download it, there you can only can use it on line. The link to the new site is https://jdparts.deere.com/servlet/com.d ... country=SZ


On a safety note if you are going to work on it with the blade raised please find something to mechanically prevent it from dropping if someone hits a lever or something happens to the hydraulics. If it comes down on someone it could kill them. If you are not familiar with these safety supports a common method is to use fairly heavy angle iron laid along on the cylinder rods similar to this photo. The rod just happens to be down instead of up as your lift cylinders are. HTH.

Jim

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420CrawlerHoller
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by 420CrawlerHoller » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:17 pm

THANK YOU for taking time to reply, really appreciated. I will grab those penetrating oils. My pop taught me to always lay the blade and draw bar down when I park it, but Im guessing just to work on this Im going to have to get under there with the blade up? Good to know so thank you for the heads up about physically preventing the blade from dropping. I think I have a steel bar up there I can use.

That parts catalog is AWESOME thank you. I would also like to get a copy of my other manuals in PDF too if anyone knows where I could download that it would be great to have on my laptop rather than bringing the manuals up there.

I have a generator and a compressor I wonder if I could haul those in and use air to help blast some of that penetration oil into the shaft?

Im heading up next Friday so I will have some updates then.
1957 420C Crawler / 1950(?) Massey Fergussen Tractor / 1952 International Harvester TD-24

Jim B
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by Jim B » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:53 pm

Lowering hydraulic attachments is a good policy to follow, your pop taught you right. At times you will find you need it up to get at things, so mechanically blocking it, so it can't come down is the policy to follow if you have to leave them up.

The John Deere site that you can get the manuals for the 420 and 40 is https://techpubs.deere.com/ . That is the site for the Agricultural equipment, which those fall under. Enter 420 as the model, SM2019 for the publication and select technical manual as type and search should bring up that manual and the types available. For the 40 enter its information the same way. You can likely find an operator's manual for your 420 there as well by changing the type to operator manual, leave the publication number blank. The manuals are purchase items, very few of the manufacturers give away service and operator manuals.

You can check with Lavoy as well. He has manuals, I don't know if he can help you with downloads. Lavoy is the owner of this site. He has a wealth of experience and knowledge of these crawlers and sells new and used parts for them. He has the experience to know he is selling quality items. You can reach him by email postmaster@jdcrawlers.com . Air and power are often aids in cleaning and fixing things, If you have them, I say take them along, it can't hurt. Keep us updated. There are many here who have knowledge of these crawlers, some have the same machines, and will help you along. Good luck.

Jim

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420CrawlerHoller
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Re: 420c not shifting into gear

Post by 420CrawlerHoller » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:23 pm

Thank you. Appreciate the help a lot!
1957 420C Crawler / 1950(?) Massey Fergussen Tractor / 1952 International Harvester TD-24

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