440ic Frozen Engine

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Roger440IC
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440ic Frozen Engine

Post by Roger440IC » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:35 pm

Well I went to start my 440ic after letting it sit outside for a few years and the engine's frozen. I was going to spray some Kroil or Liquid Wrench down into the cylinders and then let it set for a day and then give it a try. Any thoughts on a better approach?
Thanks, Roger
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gregjo1948
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Re: 440ic Frozen Engine

Post by gregjo1948 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:48 am

That's about all you can do. Some people will probably tell you to try pulling or pushing the machine while in gear. I don't like doing that because you can break rings or lands on the pistons. Even if it doesn't break anything, you'll still have the rust that was freezing it sliding up and down with the piston scoring the cylinder. I suppose the right way would be drop the oil pan and remove the head and push the pistons out. Clean up the cylinders. Probably would be a good idea to install new rings and head gasket then put it back together. AS long as, you've got the rod bearings out, it would be a good tome to get new bearings, as long as, you getting rings and head gasket.
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Re: 440ic Frozen Engine

Post by gaspumpsam » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:16 am

I think I would remove oil pan drain plug ( gently) and see what comes out first-if it’s oil, today is your lucky day! :lol:
If it’s water, it may be coming from exhaust pipe area and running into open valves, rings then pan.Then I would remove starter and try to bar engine over, if it rolls somewhat but is tight, gregjo is right it could cause internal damage if started. Because you could have liquid on top of a piston etc.
If it’s antifreeze, head gasket, or cracked something, then you would need to tare it down to find out where, or you will continually have problems.
Lavoy has all the parts you will need to repair, in any case. Good luck! Just my idea!

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Roger440IC
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Re: 440ic Frozen Engine

Post by Roger440IC » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:05 am

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

I'll put some Kroil down in the cylinders, check the oil and then try turning it over with the fan and/or flywheel in a couple of days and see how easily it turns over.

Roger
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shinnery
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Re: 440ic Frozen Engine

Post by shinnery » Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:14 pm

Just me, but to me this is a stuck engine, not frozen. A frozen engine usually includes a cracked block, pushed out "freeze" plugs etc.
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Re: 440ic Frozen Engine

Post by gregjo1948 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:02 am

gaspumpsam wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:16 am
I think I would remove oil pan drain plug ( gently) and see what comes out first-if it’s oil, today is your lucky day! :lol:
If it’s water, it may be coming from exhaust pipe area and running into open valves, rings then pan.Then I would remove starter and try to bar engine over, if it rolls somewhat but is tight, gregjo is right it could cause internal damage if started. Because you could have liquid on top of a piston etc.
If it’s antifreeze, head gasket, or cracked something, then you would need to tare it down to find out where, or you will continually have problems.
Lavoy has all the parts you will need to repair, in any case. Good luck! Just my idea!
I don't think he meant that it was frozen from being cold. I believe he meant frozen, as in seized, from setting too log and rusting the rigs to the cylinders.
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Roger440IC
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Re: 440ic Frozen Engine

Post by Roger440IC » Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:42 pm

Well I took the sparkplugs out and found a little of water (about a couple of tablespoons) in each cylinder that I was able to remove by pushing a rag down onto the pistons a few times. Once the cylinders were dry I put about a cup of Kroil into each cylinder and then let it set for a couple of days. I also removed the oil pan drain plug, as gaspumpsam suggested, and about 2 cups of water came out first before the oil started.

I bolted a 6" piece of 2x2x3/8 angle iron onto the pulley that's on the front end of the crankshaft and then used a 6' prybar on each end of the angle iron to try to rotate the engine. No luck the engine is stuck. I've gone out every day for about a week now to give it a try with the prybar and I check to make sure that there's still Kroil sitting on the top of the piston but still no movement.

I guess I'll need to take the engine down when I have some free time. Thanks for the suggestions.

Roger
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Re: 440ic Frozen Engine

Post by gaspumpsam » Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:20 am

Did you have antifreeze in rad , or was cooling system drained to store it?
When you get engine out and apart, check cyl head very closely for cracks( or have a shop clean and crack check it) very common for these to have cracks. Good , non cracked used ones seem to be hard to come by, check with Lavoy( on this site)
Also Check with him for OS pistons. Don’t know if he has some in stock yet( or can even get them) He has pretty well everything you need to rebuild, he has head kit( valves, springs, keepers and guides) believe he has valve seats and all gaskets also. Shipping from him to you, is only 2 or 3 days. Was only 5 days to us, and we are on the north side of border!

If engine has been sitting with water in cyl’s, you probably will need rebore( hence OS pistons) if he doesn’t have any yet, send me message.
My engine was seized, rod bearing turned and seized- I had to rebore,( only pistons I could find were .040 OS) ground crank, resurfaced flywheel, new rod and main and cam bearings, now waiting to find cyl head. Thought maybe Easter bunny would have brought one, but he can’t find one( on this side of the border) either. Also this covid 19 thing has brought everything to a quick halt. Found a place that would stitch repair, ( expensive) and welding crack also expensive and not many company’s do that anymore. Up here, at least.

Good luck, and enjoy the rebuild!

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Re: 440ic Frozen Engine

Post by dtoots1 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:30 am

...Tools needed..
1.....compressor up to 150psi...hammer and block of wood.
2.....compression tester, with valve stem removed and proper fitting for spark plug hole of stuck cylinder..if known.
3.....you have 2 cyl engine, pull the pan and loosen 1 piston bearing cap and determine if other piston will move...if not snug it back and loosen other
..piston bearing cap to see if it moves.
4...if neither move....loosen both bearing caps and determine if crank will move.
5...now, if you have movement of the crank and 1 piston you can proceed to get the other 1 loose.
6...if both pistons are stuck...by looking at the valves, rocker arms you will be able to tell which cylinder is on the downstroke.
7...if 1 piston does move, loosen that cap a bit a put some cushioning material between the rod and crank

EDIT>>>IF 1 piston moves..loosen other piston cap enough to add cushion material ...to move the stuck piston
error in 7 above..

8..you are now ready to proceed with 120psi air from compressor into that cylinder (stuck) thru the compression tester hose.
9. ..take valve cover off...put your air pressure into cylinder and now proceed to take a block of wood and hammer and work both intake and exhaust.
you are moving valves enough to let air pressure out and snap shut creating vibration

Now what you are literally doing is running that cylinder at optimal engine compression and literally vibrating the rust and cylinder loose the oils will
actually push thru both carb and exhaust so will be bit messy and when released you will certainly hear it..


an old Buick mechanic showed me that on my wheeled jd40s farm tractor, put t bake together added oils and has been running for the last10 years and
starts thru the winter on all 6 volt system....it had sat for over 15 years when got it, but i did lave oils set n both cylinders for several months and could not move engine to loosen any other way.


EDIT 4/15/20
If you read Stan Disbrow's post below he does make a very good point....says that number 1 cylinder usually the one stuck and I can verify that that is the one that was stuck on my wheeled Jd40s ...2 cylinder engine.....a good place to start to find out...just so happens that is where i started on mine.


..
Last edited by dtoots1 on Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

gaspumpsam
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Re: 440ic Frozen Engine

Post by gaspumpsam » Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:48 am

Do you have to remove rocker assembly to try this way of unsticking pistons? Would you put some more WD40 or similar into spark plug holes before putting air pressure into cyl?

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Re: 440ic Frozen Engine

Post by dtoots1 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:36 am

EDIT>>4/18/20
Looks like if any of the valves are already open..you may have to loosen the rocker shaft so they can close...i have donor engine and was just trying to see what i could do to loosen it...both cylinders are frozen..rust...and both cyls have valves stuck open after i loosened rocker shaft..so valve job needed before can get pressure to the cylinders....but it sure did push a lot of gunk out the intake manifold ,,oils and yuck and both cyls have leaking valves other seems to be exhaust and intake. i have pics of the bell housing and squirrel nest and yuck in that

more later as i see what doing

no you do not remove nor loosen the rocker...you will simply be opening valves and they will close themselves with the spring tension, you just place the block on the top of the valves and hit the block enough to open the valve momentarily and it releases the air on that valve for that cylinder you then move the block to the other valve for that cylinder and strike it enough to open, do this several times and maybe numerous times, it may need additional pressure above the 120psi but probably won't need it.

i put several different kinds in, sprayed pb blaster and used some red miracle oil as well air pressure will push oils along cylinders and do oil to both cylinders it won't hurt to have oil there for lube

BY THE WAY, obviously, if piston does not release, you will have a teardown anyway. the mechanic actually told me to run pressure up to 200 psi, but knowing compression usually runs in the 120s i prefer to keep it there. AND STILL HAVE A STUCK PISTON and not be able to get out?? to reckon machine shop could., tho not sure how they do it. anyone?

any other comments or thoughts out there???

Also a question....What amount of psi would ...detonation in the cylinder.. produce?
Last edited by dtoots1 on Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: 440ic Frozen Engine

Post by Stan Disbrow » Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:29 am

Hi,

Last one I did required busting the top out of the piston and using U bolts on the wrist pin boss hooked to a hub puller which was attached where the head bolts go. Had to yank the stuck piston up as it would not budge downwards at all. Oil ring rusted to the bore.

And, we were the machine shop. It was either get all nasty with it or junk the engine.

They like to stop running with number one on the exhaust stroke so leaves the valve open. In this case, it was the lack of a can on the stack which allowed water in. Sat for years, so this is why it was so bad.

Stan
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Re: 440ic Frozen Engine

Post by Billhc83 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:05 am

Just my 2 cents.....I've had good luck with seafoam and ATF in the plug ports. Takes a couple weeks but does work to unstick rings if that's what it is. Just used this method to unstick an old tractor but definitely depends on how bad things are....good luck to you.

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Re: 440ic Frozen Engine

Post by pcsaw » Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:18 pm

I would pull the head off put some gas and transmission fluid mix in both pistons put a rag in it for a wick light it let it burn out then put a block down in it and hit it with a sledge

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Re: 440ic Frozen Engine

Post by ddaxe » Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:19 pm

I haven't had to do an engine from a crawler.. and many of the techniques mentioned are all things that can be done.. I have freed up snowmobile engines by putting them in a 30 ton press and giving each piston a little push... was successful many times.. not sure you could get a crawler twin onto a press... though an inner pak hydraulic ram could be rigged up to do the same... a soak in diesel of trans fluid work good as well... certainly a PITA and can be a real nightmare...
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