440IC Negative ground 6v

[djt5278]

My 440 did not have a battery when I bought it, and the starter was toast. Rebuilt the starter and got a new 6v battery. Didn't think about positive vs negative ground and hooked it up with a negative ground. Starter and gauges all work fine, but I get nothing from the alternator. Should I flip the battery around, even though the starter seems to be working fine?

[Jim B]

If you have an alternator chances are it is a 12 volt conversion, negative ground. There are a few 6 volt ones but they are not common. Original was a generator.

Starters will turn the same direction with either ground.

[djt5278]

Well, I guess I'm not sure if its an alternator or a generator. I've never dealt with older equipment where that naming actually matters. Would the voltage regulator or ignition coil work with either ground/would it hurt any of them if I flipped the battery? All that isn't working in the current configuration is the alternator/generator.

[Jim B]

Welcome to the Board. Sorry I didn't elaborate further earlier but I was called away.

In this case it makes a difference as to whether it is a generator or an alternator because the trouble shooting is different for them. The generator will have an external regulator. If it is an alternator it is likely 12 volts, 6 volt alternators are not often encountered. An alternator could have either an external or an internal regulator. So first thing is to ID what you have, generator or alternator. Here are a couple pictures. See which one looks like yours, and let us know and we will go from there to help you with troubleshooting your system.

First a Delco Remy generator (see if yours has a metal tag riveted on the side of the barrel and if so post the numbers on it).


Next is an alternator (most will be aluminum colored and look similar to this one).

[Stan Disbrow]

Hi,

Only part that matters as far as polarity goes is the generator. Have that backwards and it will discharge the battery until it quits.

Stan

[Jim B]

Hi Stan,

I am guessing you are including the regulator with the generator, as some regulators are polarity sensitive, or at least recommended for a specific ground. From a Delco Remy regulator manual: "Some regulators are designed for use with negative grounded batteries while other regulators are designed for use with positive grounded batteries. Using the wrong polarity regulator on an installation will cause the regulator contact points to pit badly and give very short life." Delco did stamp the polarity in the bases of some regulators, some other manufacturers stenciled the info on them. If he does in fact have a generator, as originally equipped, the regulator would have been for positive ground I believe. I'm not saying they won't work either polarity, just that service life may suffer. If he has a generator I would recommend he try polarizing the generator for positive ground and see what it does.
Jim

[dtoots1]

a quik and dirty answer...alternators are usually silver looking aluminum...generators are heavy/thick iron/steel and usually painted black as seen in pics..

by the way mine is also 1960 jd440ic..is also converted to 12 volt system with alternator...just have to get starter converted to 12 volt yet..when you down this way stop and view or holler for questions.

[djt5278]

I have the original delco remy generator that Jim posted, didn't get the tag number though. What Stan's saying seems to be correct, the only thing that cares about polarity is the generator, because that's the only part not working.

So looks like I DO have a positive ground and my battery is backwards, I'll flip it tonight and report back. What about the coil? I have the stud marked positive coming from the harness, then negative marked stud going to the distributor.

Rather than making a new topic another small electrical issue is a sensor located behind the hydraulic pump, below the generator.(not the oil pressure sensor located by the oil filter) What is this for? It isn't hooked up on my 440. One terminal has no wire and the other was connected to the coil, but I don't remember which side. Engine runs with it disconnected.

[Jim B]

You will likely need to polarize the generator after changing the battery. It is likely your existing regulator is for positive ground. Be aware. a bad regulator or incomplete wiring can prevent the generator from working.

The coil on a positive ground system is best hooked up with the wire from the harness (ignition power) to the - (negative) terminal and the wire to the distributor connected to the + (positive) terminal.

I expect the sensor you are referring to is an oil pressure switch. Those were often used to power hourmeters and would have been powered from the ignition side terminal of the coil (the switch is not ground sensitive so would have been wired the same on either ground system). The second terminal would have had a wire to the hourmeter.

Here is a link to a site with a number Delco Remy manuals (basics are the same for the charging systems, cars, trucks, tractors, etc.). You will find info on the generators and regulators that may help with trouble shooting if just swapping the battery around doesn't work. http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/el ... /index.htm

[Lavoy]

Coil needs to be wired for applicable polarity, and regulator will only work for negative ground. The crawler was born positive ground, unless you are converting to 12 volts, there is no good reason to run 6 volts negative ground. You would need to change regulator (if a 6 volt negative ground even exists), change the wiring on the amp meter and the coil, and repolarize the generator. Why not just wire it how it is supposed to be?
Lavoy

[djt5278]

Sorry for the delay. Tractor started up easily with negative ground, swapped the polarity and it wouldn't start so I put it back and it still wouldn't start. After doing some electrical diagnosis thinking that was the issue, found out that it just happen to run out of gas after the swap .

Ammeter shows it's slightly discharging with positive ground. The voltage regulator clicks about every 20 seconds when its connected with positive ground (not when on negative), normal?

Also, that sensor I was trying to identify is the hour meter, looks like mine was disconnected when the tractor was rewired at some point. 4600 hours

[Jim B]

You should use a voltmeter to see what the generator is actually doing, see if battery voltage drops when the needle on the ammeter goes to discharge to be sure the ammeter is connected right. I suspect your regulator may have been damaged from hooking it up negative ground. Have you polarized the generator to be sure it is correct for positive ground? There is information in the Delco manuals I gave you the link to to help you diagnose the charging system. Your 440IC service manual should have testing info as well. A quick test is to use a jumper wire ground the field terminal of the generator to the generator frame, or other good ground, and see if it charges. If it does the regulator is likely the issue. If it doesn't charge with the jumper wire the generator is likely the issue. If you have to take the generator to be rebuilt take the regulator as well so they can be tested together. And tell the shop it is on a positive ground machine.

[Lavoy]

Again I will ask what is the benefit to run negative ground when the crawler was designed to run positive ground?
And again, the polarity on the coil needs to be changed if running negative ground as well. Leave it the way it was designed and nothing needs to be rewired.
Lavoy

[Jim B]

I agree, no gain in trying to make it negative ground. I think he put the battery in backwards and hooked it up negative ground and is trying to correct it now, I could be wrong. Hooking it up negative may have screwed something up, like the regulator.

[djt5278]

I agree, no gain in trying to make it negative ground. I think he put the battery in backwards and hooked it up negative ground and is trying to correct it now, I could be wrong. Hooking it up negative may have screwed something up, like the regulator.

Hit the nail on the head. I hooked it up wrong and was trying to figure out if it was changed since it started fine, but probably took the regulator out doing so. This is kind of on the backburner until I get the final drive back together.