starter keeps turning

[frozen dozer]

Hello folks

I got a 440icd that I am in the stage of trying to get up and running. After several weeks of work I was able to get the engine broke free and it now spins easily using a breaker bar on the bolt that is on the front of the crank shaft. The start that was on it, was in terrible shape, so I used an old starter I had from another JD 440icd that i purchased for parts. When i first tried it, the starter would turn over, however once i removed the power to the solenoid it would keep spinning until i removed the main battery terminal. I thought maybe the solenoid was hooped as it had a broken piece from it. I did a mini rebuild by changing the brushes, a new solenoid and new bushing and good cleaning. I noticed the end of the armature were the brushing rub against is wore down almost smooth and not with those clearly defined gaps that i always noticed on other projects I worked on.

I installed this home rebuilt starter and was happy that it would turn over the motor, however too slow to even think it would be able to start and it kept spinning just like before the rebuild. Research online says that its due to low voltage cause I don't have a battery on the beast and just using my jumper cables from my truck.

I am looking for any advice out there from folks that have way more knowledge than I have. Its so very difficult to find parts for this delco remy 1108656 starter, that I wish there was a new replacement that could be substituted.

thanks all for your time

[dtoots1]

First thing needed is brand new battery cable and clean grounds..second thing is get a battery in the machine with a proper charge...not sure if you have aded your location ...to do so add it to your profile, access is in the drop down login box, someone may be nearby with hands on experience

next thing is to determine whether machine is set up with a generator r alternator...to determine proper ground..my jd440 ic is set up with alternator and 12 volts system...the older generator set up was usually 6 volt

was starter tested before placing in machine to see how powerful it turned, can usually tell the difference..

[frozen dozer]

Thanks for the reply dtoots1, I will try those recommendations of new cables and battery, however I am able to start my other jd440icd with just jumper cables and no battery. my location is also a challenge, as I live in a very remote part of northern Canada in a little town of less than 400 people and the nearest john deere dealership probably being in Fort Saint john about 2000 km away, so I am basically on my own. This machine has an alternator with a negative ground.

This machine was pretty much pushed into a scrap yard and forgotten for several years before i bought it, so there is much to do to get it up to snuff, however the previous owner said it ran when it was parked, but he did say it needed a starter.

I am not sure what you mean by tested. I have been looking at you tube videos of guys rebuilding starters and will look for that info tonight after work.

Once again thanks for the advice

[dtoots1]

ok...usually with an alternator you are pushing 12volts...and should be a tag or plate on the alternator stating the voltage.. normally12volt is NEGATIVE ground. You mite just try taking your battery out of truck to simply do your test start.

On the starter armature your mention that the..i think its called commutator...with the slots seemed to be quite smooth, by that i assume the grooves are either plugged with carbon..from the brushes, or completely worn down to the wire windings??...if not worn down that far you should be able to clean all the grooves out with some sort of pick and/or from air compressor....those are air gaps and makes it produce the electricity needed.

OK to test the starter..outside of the machine...simply hook jumper cable from negative battery post to the outside casing of the starter and touch the positive cable to the battery post..on the starter..with the other end of jumper on the positive battery....if nothing happens you will probably have to jump the solenoid with a screwdriver to activate the starter...not sure if will need small jumper wire from positive also to the solenoid post that takes the small wire....hang on to the body as it will jump a bit if powerful

one other thing to check is your key switch and wiring to the starter....bad switch??

[Jim B]

Unfortunately, without the right equipment you can't fully test starter components. It could have weak field coils or a bad armature. You can find online info on testing them that you can do with a voltmeter and ohmmeter. If you do a web search using the Delco part number, you can usually find a few rebuilt ones. However, I expect shipping will not be inexpensive. Can you send the starter to a shop that does such rebuilds in a large town/city near you? (Near being a relative term for your location.)

This manual is for a larger Delco starter than yours but the testing and such are the same basic process. It may give you some tests you can do with tools you have.
https://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-9-2 ... -and-P.pdf
Jim

[dtoots1]

i dont suppose there is much farming up that away....usually are some electric motor repair shops around...that is essentially what or how starter operates and can perhaps test...truck or auto repair garage?

[Lavoy]

I have parts available for the ICD starters.
Lavoy

[frozen dozer]

dtoots1 I had time to try your suggestion of trying the starter outside of the machine. It worked as it should. Once I installed the starter it proceeded to repeat what my initial problem with it was. The motor was once upon stuck, however with perseverance and a bunch of ATF I was able to get the engine to turn over. My question is, could it be cause the engine maybe too difficult for the starter to spin, could this create an unacceptable load on the starter that it would behave like this?

I think, my next steps would be to test this starter with a multi meter, guess Ill pick one upon when i Go in to my once monthly trip into the city.

[original possum]

It would be most unusual if your problem was the starter itself. More likely the solenoid or your wiring. The solenoid plunger pushes a copper washer against the battery and the starter lugs and it should stay there only as long as the solenoid magnet is energized. The washer has a spring that should push it off the lugs even if the bendix gets stuck in the engaged position UNLESS the plunger is seized in the engaged position, which would overcome that spring. That is the most likely cause. Make sure the solenoid plunger is not seizing. You could use the VOM to check that current only goes to the solenoid when you tell it to and doesn't continue when you stop.

[dtoots1]

OK...While in town..is there anywhere that you can have starter tested? Auto parts stores usually are able to do some testing...Farm equipment dealers also..

I had a problem on my 54 jd40 farm tractor starter...jd farm electrical department checked it out...they actually pulled that plunger washer and replaced it....i actually have the old one and you can see that is was actually worn to point it was only making intermittent contact, after all these machines are 60 years old!!!...getting a bit of the arthritis too!!!

were any wires to the starter from key switch getting hot? did you check for proper electric set up for the alternator..negative ground etc...Is battery good and strong..charge?

OK one other suggestion you mite try...take the starter and mont it in your other jd440icd....that will actually give you an indication whether t is the starter functioning properly or something else...you mite then use the one you just took out to test in your newly acquired unit to see if operates same as old...if so...are you holding the foot clutch in while trying to start...to relieve any additional resistance to turning over..frm the cold thick tranny fluid?

Results???

[Lavoy]

Engine load will not cause a starter drive to stick. You have a mechanical issue with your starter and it needs to be repaired. Bench testing is irrelevant in your case if the starter only exhibits the problem once installed. Something is worn so that when it is under load it is causing a binding that is not letting the drive retract.
Lavoy

[dtoots1]

Question...are you saying that the starter....remains turning over after you release the key?? still?...that was the original problem....
If so you have an electrical problem...i.e.electricity flowing yet...so short in wiring somewhere from the keyswitch or bad switch.
If bendix sticking...you can tell difference...it won't engage the gears.
also what did you see on the commutator gaps?
Incidently, the starter case also needs a good clean...rust free..at the mounting face for it to have a good ground also...

If commutator worn too much will need a rebuild.

[frozen dozer]

Due to several reasons of how I found this machine, engine stuck, left for many years and general poor mntc of this machine the following applies.

The original starter, that was in the machine, was not operational with the solenoid all broken apart and a "cooked " look on the outside. I had a starter from a JD 440 icd that I purchased for parts and tried to use it as a replacements. As the motor was stuck, I had to remove the radiator, hydraulic pump and alternator in order to gain access to the big bolt on the crank shaft in order to get my 3/4 drive bar and socket on to break the motor free.

When i installed the starter i did not use the existing electrical wiring , i made a small jumper wire that is connected to the appropriate terminal on the new solenoid, a new positive cable from a good battery, a ground connected to the machine with a good quality battery cable. To action the starter, i use the free end of the lead to touch the battery positive terminal. when the starter is on a bench, it operates as it should, when i install the starter in the machine (with the same electrical hook up as previously described) it has a different behaviour. Upon touching the wire from the solenoid to the battery the starter engages the ring gear as normal and even after removing the contact wire from the battery, which should retract the bendix and shut off the starter, the starter keeps turning and will only shut down by disconnecting the main power from the battery.

I did notice that the plunger looked wore, but i gave it a good sanding job to remove the rust, however like i said before, it appears to work ok outside of the machine, when i replaced the bushing i did a good clean of the armature and the inside of the starter. I did not remove the field coils but i cleaned them as best i could.

I had thought about mounting this stater in my other 440 icd however its about 500km away and we still got about 4 feet of snow, so I think this idea gonna wait until May some time.

could there be an instance of a short within the starter? perhaps cause there is load placed on it as it tries to turn the engine over the armature flexes and create a short within the starter?

[dtoots1]

Just out of curiosity...where does the strand of wire from the solenoid lay when you disconnect it from the battery?..does it perchance lay on the starter, perhaps..electricity pulling thru insulation?...i would hook that wire to battery post and only touch the end to the solenoid post to initiate starter...usually have a pushbutton switch in that line to initiate...kinda operates like a key switch...

I cannot remember just how that solenoid actually mounts, seems to me that has to have an insulator washer or pad when mounting??

Is the engine running ?..while the starter is still powered?

STAN Disbro..you da man....can you figure out possible source?

[jimmydiesel]

frozen dozer
Have you tried tapping on the solenoid with a hammer when the starter is still running?
If a starter is used with low voltage or high load it can overload the contacts in the cap and the disk on the plunger. This will cause the disk to stick to the contacts and keep the starter running after power is no longer being applied to the solenoid.
Tapping on the metal part of the solenoid will usually knock it loose. Just something else to try.
Steve.