440ic trans problems

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BCRAWLIN
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440ic trans problems

Post by BCRAWLIN » Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:03 pm

with the engine off I can get the machine to roll forward in 1st gear with reverser in forward by turning the pto shaft. Start it up and it acts like there isn't even a first gear there. Doesn't matter which direction the reverser is in. All other gears work fine. zero broken gears or chipped teeth in trans. The first gear was working when i got it but with a slight growling, kinda like a semi bad bearing noise. The manual for these doesnt give any diagnosis steps like the newer machine manuals so any help would be greatly appreciated thank you. New to this message board, have found a ton of useful posts, none pertaining to this unfortunately.
1958 440ic thats been used hard and put away hot more than not

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Re: 440ic trans problems

Post by gus » Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:34 pm

Possible bent shifting fork, not engaging it from the engine side?

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Re: 440ic trans problems

Post by Jim B » Sat Oct 22, 2022 6:26 pm

elcome to the board.

Sounds like a problem in the engine clutch or reverser.

Is this a new machine to you or one you have had and been using for a time? The reverser is between the engine clutch and the transmission. The PTO is driven from the transmission (opposite end from the reverser) and will turn the transmission without the reverser or engine clutch in play.

The 440IC reverser has a two wet clutches, one for forward, and one for reverse. Does the reverser handle need 25 to 35 pounds of force to snap it into the forward and reverse positions? It must snap in; not just move in the direction you want to go. Is it tight enough that it takes a lot more force to snap it? The clutches inside the reverser may need adjusting. The info on how to adjust them is in the operator's and service manuals. If it snaps in properly, there is a possibility the engine clutch is shot since you say neither forward nor reverse work in the reverser. How is the free play on the clutch pedal?
Jim

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Re: 440ic trans problems

Post by Lavoy » Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:33 am

Reverser is ahead of the trans, so your test with the PTO shaft doesn't really tell much other than the gear is engaging. You need to find out of the reverser is slipping, or the engine clutch is slipping, or either way, something between the engine and the trans.
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BCRAWLIN
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Re: 440ic trans problems

Post by BCRAWLIN » Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:55 am

Thanks for the replies, I've adjusted all of the above before posting my original post. I didn't want to waste any of your time not doing the obvious. That being said I'll recheck it all but I'm fairly confident it's right. Like I stated before all other gears work in both directions. Oh to answer the question this machine is new to me. I'll check shift fork as well just in case it might be bent
1958 440ic thats been used hard and put away hot more than not

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Re: 440ic trans problems

Post by Jim B » Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:13 pm

I would lean towards the engine clutch, if the reverser is properly snapping in. The engine clutch drives the reverser. To me seems unlikely you lost both reverser clutches at the same time. Engine clutch is my first thought followed by a broken shaft or stripped coupling somewhere between the engine clutch and transmission. You say first gear worked when you got it. How did it work in 2 through 5? Forward and reverse in all of them? If it would only go in first, that again sounds like engine clutch.

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Re: 440ic trans problems

Post by gus » Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:50 pm

He stated ALL other gears WORK in both directions.

It isn't a clutch. Something from the engine side isn't engaging 1st gear. My guess is the drive gear for first isn't being moved into position. Which other speed is connected to that drive gear? It must be working there, so it isn't moving the other way far enough. Only other possibility is major shaft\bearing failure has dropped the first gear so far away from the drive gear, they don't touch

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Re: 440ic trans problems

Post by Jim B » Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:08 pm

You are correct gus, I read it wrong. My apologies to BCRAWLIN.

If it is a four-speed, 1st and 4th are shifted by the same fork. If it is a 5 speed, 1st and 5th are shifted by the same fork. The service manual should show the power flow through the gears for each speed. To diagnose you will need to follow the power flow arrows through the gears. Pull the plugs and unhook the ignition wire from the coil. With the transmission cover off, you can try moving the 1st/5th sliding gear into position for first gear and see if it engages and you get results when you bump the starter. Stay clear of pinch points as it should move if the gears are meshed. If it tries to move it might be just a slipped or bent fork as gus has mentioned. If it doesn't try to move, follow the power flow diagram for 1st gear to see where the gear mesh is lost. Lift on the ends of the shafts to check for a failed bearing.
Jim

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Re: 440ic trans problems

Post by gus » Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:50 pm

Might try a long magnet to the bottom of the tranny case. See if there's any "extra parts". Something like bearing parts. You said it was "growling " in first but working when you got it.

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Re: 440ic trans problems

Post by BCRAWLIN » Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:55 am

I genuinely love this crawler site. This is the issue with older equipment, no diagnosis sections in the manuals. Hopefully I haven't wasted any of you guys time. I've had the cover off the trans, drained oil replaced oil like, I said in the first post didnt find anything wrong in there at all. Okay I didnt think it would matter because I'm new to these machines but I was starting it by using the PTO shaft in neutral with reverser forward because the starter crapped out on me and had to get the work done that I purchased it to do. probably started it like this a dozen times maybe. First gear stopped working all of a sudden out of nowhere no bangs no slipping or jerking nothing other than that slight bearing noise. After this happened I tried 2nd gear it worked so i kept working that day. The next day I was unable to start it using the PTO shaft because of slippage. Ive looked that power flow section over a few times and it doesn't help one bit. Not because i don't understand it, because nothing jumps out at me to be wrong especially without any specific dimensions of exact gear placement. I it possible a cluster gear has moved slightly to allow 4th gear to still work but not 1st gear?? I'm not going to beat a dead horse here so thanks for all the help and if i happen to find the problem I'll be sure to fill everyone in. On to the other stupid problem, building a starter from scratch because I refuse to pay the price for this machines reman TY6632 type starter. JD could build a million different tractors and equipment that use mostly the same starter with a couple variants except for these crawlers. I read on here somewhere they built these around the trans, I disagree I think it started with the Starter heh heh.
1958 440ic thats been used hard and put away hot more than not

Jim B
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Re: 440ic trans problems

Post by Jim B » Wed Oct 26, 2022 6:06 am

In every gear, except first gear, when you turn the PTO shaft, with it in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear; the engine will turn. The PTO shaft turns but it will not turn the engine when in 1st gear. Am I understanding correctly now? When you had the cover off did you try moving the 1st sliding gear into its driving position by hand and try turning the PTO shaft? That would eliminate the possibility the fork is bent or the pin holding it to the rail is compromised and not moving the gear far enough. Beyond that it would seem to be a bearing problem, or sheared coupling or splines on a shaft. I believe the only gears that should slide would be the ones moved by forks. If you can slide any cluster gears any appreciable amount it would sound like a problem.

An auto parts store should be able to get a starter if yours is total toast. They should be able to cross the Delco number. It appears DR 1108072 crosses to a Wilson 91-01-3673, not cheap but it looks like it might be a couple hundred less than JD. (I am guessing for JD you now have the choice of United Ag and Turf New England or United Construction and Forestry same as we have down state. I understand United bought out Theriault earlier this year.) I have heard Scott Kent, Maine Tractor Crossing, has closed shop but haven't tried to contact him. You may know if that is right. He might have an idea of something in your area, if he is around.

Just some thoughts. Hope you find the problem and report back.
Jim

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Re: 440ic trans problems

Post by Lavoy » Wed Oct 26, 2022 9:15 am

I have rebuilt starters on hand, and normally stock all the rebuild parts.
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