440 Reverser Problem

Toivo1037 · Post by **Toivo1037** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:10 am

Well, I took the reverser apart last night, and checked things out to see how it worked and to try and determine the source of my problem. (BTW, I am taking some pics and will post the procedure when I am done.)

It looks like I may have 2 problems. From what I can tell in the front clutch that the dealer installed, there was a little rust on the adjustment ring threads, causing me to think that I had adjusted the ring the whole way out, when in fact I may have not been that far. After removal I freed the ring up a bit more, and ran it almost all the way out, then brought it back to the point where I can get the ring to ‘detent’ over and snap tight. I tightened it up 1 or 2 more clicks, and was still able to snap it over with a screwdriver.
I could not see anything else wrong, so I reassembled everything. With the side cover still off the reverser, I was able to snap the clutches into ‘detent’ with a screwdriver, and it seems to be functioning normally. So I installed the side cover, and found another problem. I rigged up a bench testing lever to work the reverser lever and I can get it to snap into reverse, but the same old problem of not snapping into forward is persisting. I removed the front inspection cover and I was able to snap the ring into ‘detent’ with a screwdriver, but no matter what I do, I can’t get it to go with the lever.

So it appears that the fork is not moving the front clutch far enough to get it to dog over and snap in. Could the fork be slightly bent from the breakage? It does not appear that way and looks fine but I guess it is possible. Can someone give me a measurement from the face of the rear fork to the center of the front fork? That may tell me if it is bad.
The other thing is I found 3 shims between the front clutch and the outside case where the bearing is. Are theses in the correct place or should they be behind the clutch, thus moving it forward and letting the fork push on it harder?

Thanks,
-Neil

Toivo1037 · Post by **Toivo1037** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:27 pm

Well I have been messing with it off and on for 2 weeks. I have checked the forks over and they are in good shape, no bends there.

I mentioned before that there were 3 metal shims between the front clutch and the bearing on the outside case. This is where the manual shows them (or at least 1) I tried moving them to the backside of the front cluth, between it and the diff. Things are working a litte better, but still not completely right. The shims seem to fit between the front clutch and the diff OK, is this OK to do? Is there any reason why I can't leave those shims there?

My next thing is to work on the linkage just a little to tighten it up a bit.
I want things back together within 2 weeks, working correctly or not.

Post by **Lavoy** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:40 am

The shims should be on the other end. Did you measure the end play? THere is not a set number of shims that get installed, you install as many as necessar to get the correct end play.
Lavoy

Toivo1037 · Post by **Toivo1037** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:01 am

I don't have a dial indicator, so I can't measure the end play. It is not very much though, seems to be acceptable. It is about the same no matter which side I have the shims on.
By moving the 3 shims to the rear of the front clutch it moves the clutch forward just a little. This helps my clutch engaging problem, as it seems like the clutch needs to be farther forward to get the forks to move it rearward to get it to engage. The fork seems like it needs to move farther rearward, but there is no more room for that, so I figured the next best thing it to move the clutch forward, that way the forks can move it just a little further.
Any reason that having those shims in that location could cause damage? It doesn't look like it to me, but I thought that I would ask.

Post by **Lavoy** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:15 pm

I think if you have them on that side, they will be hitting the thrust washer in the front of the differentail. Speaking of which, are both the front and rear thrust washers in place?
I still think you have a linkage or adjustment issue, a few thousandths of shim should not have that great of an effect.
Lavoy

Toivo1037 · Post by **Toivo1037** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:31 pm

I will check for the thrust washers tonight. There is just a little play in the rocker linkage on the side of the reverser. I am going to fix that with a little weld and grind tonight to close teh gap up a little.
Thanks for your suggestions to date.
-Neil

Post by **Lavoy** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:21 pm

Make sure that it is not the reverser lever or linkage hitting against the dash or something like that. Seems to me now that I had one at one time that was acting up. Turned out it was something in the external linkage.
Lavoy

Toivo1037 · Post by **Toivo1037** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:46 pm

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - I finally figured it out!!!

So I took Lavory's advise, and I tightened up the linkage, not too tough since I have the reverser on the floor, and there is only 1 part. The groove was a bit wore, so I welded up the groove and cut it and filed it back open more back to speck. The front clutch still was not moving far enough to engage. So I decided to start shimming between the front clutch, and diff. That’s when I found it, THE THRUST WASHER WAS MISSING!! I can’t believe that I missed that upon first disassembly. I went to hardware, and found the closest thing I could get, and filed the outside until if fit properly, and upon final installation things seem to be working!!

The thing is, I checked the endplay on the input shaft and it was not too bad, I did not realize that the front clutch floated on that shaft. Without the washer there, there is no way the forks can move the clutch far enough to properly engage it.

So I guess I now need the proper thrust washer. Is there anyone out there who has the specs on this thing? In the exploded parts diagram on page 120-10-7 of the service manual, it is part "S" And with all the messing around, I should also replace the seal "M" while I am at it. I doubt that the deal has these things, so where can I go? Lavory would you have any lying around?

-Neil

CELSESSER · Post by **CELSESSER** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:14 am

Neil,

What city is the deelership in that you sent it to TWICE? Just so I know where not to go.
I think I would send them a copy of this thread and a bill for your time!
Buy the way, I changed the lube in my reverser and got a couple of little pieces of what looks like drive disk tab. It still works fine but a R&R may be in my future. I may give you a call.

Chuck

Toivo1037 · Post by **Toivo1037** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:19 am

Chuck, no problem telling people about my experience. It was Nortrax over in Escanaba. I'll never deal with them again for sure.

As for your reverser, if you are getting any pieces out of it, you probably should take it apart. The parts are just not easy to come by anymore, and it is just going to get worse. Do you know what those pieces are? Post some pics and we will try to figure it out. I have been told you can still get the disks, if that is your problem, get them replaced. If one of those things explode, and it takes other parts out, you may be into a costly and lengthly rebuild. The front clutch for mine was $750.
I want to give something back to teh board for giving me the confidence to tear my down, so I took some pics along the way. When I am done, I plan on posting the reverser teardown procedure, with tips, and pics so the next guy can tackle it too.

CELSESSER · Post by **CELSESSER** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:34 pm

Neil,

Not having any luck getting a clear picture as the piece is so small. Looks to be 1/16th thick and the piece is only 1/4" long with two polished edges at a right angle, the fracture point is 1/8th " parallel to the long polished surface and works its way out to that longer polished edge. The longest polished edge seems to be straight, ie: no radius.
How thick is the driving clutch plate AT10438T(the one with the tabs on the outside)? What is it made of? This piece is definatly steel. I just don't see anything else that it might have come from due to its shape other than the driving disk tab.
It's a small world, this 440 came from Gladstone, just east of Escanaba and has some Nortrax parts in it!

Chuck

Post by **Lavoy** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:21 pm

Neil,
I just put two of those washers in a reverser, pretty sure I have one new one, and a couple of mice used ones on hand. Did you check to see that they did not forget the back thrust washer as well?
Lavoy

Stan Disbrow · Post by **Stan Disbrow** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:19 am

Lavoy,

What did the mice use them for??

Sorry, couldn't resist! I know you mean 'nice used ones' and that pesky 'm' is right next to the 'n', but the mental image of 'mice' using thrust washers out of a direction reverser was too good not to bring it up!!

Stan

Toivo1037 · Post by **Toivo1037** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:08 pm

Lavory, you have E-mail

Post by **Lavoy** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:07 pm

Can't belive I missed that, with only two typing fingers, should never have done that, no wonder I almost got kicked out of typing class.
Lavoy

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440 Reverser Problem

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