New Late 440 and 1010 Sprockets

[wwattson]

Hi gang,

I've been writing back and forth with a Korean undercarriage manufacturer about the possibility of making new 16259 sprockets and it looks like there might be a possibility if there was a big enough interest to cover their engineering cost. I wanted to see what the interest level was from the group and get a sense of how many sprocket we could drive in an order.

Like Lavoy said, this doesn't work for a handful of sprockets but it might work at an order of 100. What the folks over there told me is that once the engineering is done, small orders in the future are no problem. I need to work out a way that if we cover the engineering cost that they don't start selling sprockets for which we paid for the engineering but I think I can manage that outcome.

What do you think?

[Tigerhaze]

I have a 2010 so I don't have a direct stake in this but it seems like a great idea. Unfortunately I'm not sure you'll get enough exposure from the members here to cover it. However I would imagine you may get enough interest if you had a more universal outlet like EBay. That probably doesn't help you until you got it manufactured.

[Pammark]

How much engineering is needed? The shape and thickness has already been determined. It sounds like engineering is getting a mold set for pouring new ones. Make a mold from a new (or good used) one and run with it.

A good source of engineering might be a local university. They have students willing to do projects like this. My brother teaches inductrial engineering at a local college and they might be able to do sprockets as well as other needed items too.

The funny thing about colleges, if you pay them for a service, it runs through their general fund with everyone's fingers in it. The engineering department might be lucky to get a dollar after it is all said and done. The best way is to give the department a gift (like maybe a peice of equipment). This way they see 100% of the compensation.

Tell me more about he engineering needs and I will pass it on to my brother. You never know.




Mark

[carolina crawler]

I am in, Been looking around for these sprockets....saw some on ebay a few weeks ago, got out bidded by 30 bucks....Will the manufacture use good metal? thats the key......I would be willing to buy four sprockets......Mark

[BKahler]

I don't need any right now as the sprockets seem to be in pretty decent shape. But I'm sure the day will come and I'll need replacements. It would be nice to know there is a source out there some where.

Brad

[wwattson]

As to the engineering work, what he was referring to is the mold design work. From what I can tell, sand casting steel is still the prevailing method for sprockets and you need to make a pattern that accounts for contraction (volume loss from transition from liquid to solid phase), shrinkage (thermal size differences), and finishing (machining the hub, etc.). It's pretty much an exercise for somebody with experience that does it for a living although there is an excellent Yahoo group that I belong to call Castinghobby if you'd like to do some of your own casting at home.

As to the manufacturer, it's a direct competitor to Berco. Berco manufactures the Deere undercarriage parts today. The Korean company sells to the world wide market and appear to produce a good product. The problem I ran into with Berco is they are so big it's not worth their time. That being said, I've got no issues with Berco and they absolutely try to help where they can; they're just not a charity. The Koreans were more willing to discuss possibilities because they're smaller, their engineering costs are lower, and they want to build market and reputation.

With anything I come up with it looks like the magic number is around 100 sprockets. 100 sprockets is a bunch of sprockets to move as the folks at Berco had told me and it's worth having a pretty good understanding of the market potential before making any commitments. With the one T16259 new sprocket going on eBay for $560, I'm guessing there's some interest to drive that kind of price.

[wwattson]

Oops, reversed the definitions for contraction and shrinkage in the previous post. That's why I'm not in the business.

[carolina crawler]

any ideas to why the T16259T sprocket is so hard to find?...I seen allot of various sprockets out there for all types of older JD machines and many others..But this, like many other parts are almost impossible to find. I am holding out to find a good pair of sprockets for my crawler, but to no avail at the current......Did find a sweet 1010 dozer here in ga for 3k,very nice machine and totally complete, and running, the only thing thats holding me back from going to check it out is the engine. owner says crankshaft was replaced and when warm has a slight knock....??who knows whats wrong.thought maybe buy it and part out my 440 but wife says " oh heck no".NO more toys...but baby I need this to ......"yea right" she says....please keep us posted on the outcome of the sprockets for sure....thanks CC....can someone send some rain down to georgia,were drying up down here..

[wwattson]

Well, if I had to guess I'd say that it is mostly to do with how many are sold and the options. If you're not worried about keeping the crawler authentic, there's the 350 rims, you could space out a T16261 rim like I've seen posted before, or you could take a T16261 sprocket and cut the rim off to make a weld on rim like Lavoy had posted.

In the end it comes down to supply and demand and there's no sprockets because there's no demand. If Berco had a bunch of guys that wanted 1010 sprockets, there'd be 1010 sprockets. Judging from the response to this post I'd be hard pressed to invest too much time or effort into pursuing this too much further as it doesn't appear there'd be enough volume to cover the costs.

There's still a few T16259 sprockets in the system so they're not completely gone. I can still find them for $350 range so there's still not a need to spend the sort of money that the one went for on eBay. It just seemed to me that with the number of late 440s and 1010s out there that there would be more interest in securing a future parts source for these sprockets but I've got to say the silence is deafening.

[Lavoy]

Only the very last 440's had the narrow dish sprocket, so the 1010 is the main user. JR Hobbs once joked that they quit making parts for the 1010's when the last one rolled off of the assembly line. He was speaking mainly of the tractors, but he is not far off. Parts support for the 1010 has always been poor, and may be a contributing factor. In the long run, putting 350 rims on is probably your best bet. Plus, then you can upgrade to 350 rails at any time.
Lavoy

[carolina crawler]

.....I See....so if I were to go with a pair of 350 sprockets and rails, my pads and rollers/idlers will all mate up ok?...this is by no means going to be a show crawler, just will be worked hard in the mountains of south carolina, and dont want to worry if I blow a rail off or something due to a short cut I may take to just get the crawler working....I like it...tell me gentlemen..who do I talk to, about this conversion?.....thanks again you guys are great...Mark

[wwattson]

Not quite Mark. A 350 sprocket is completely different than a 1010 sprocket but it does have the same diameter and pitch. What Lavoy is saying is that a 350 weld on rim welded onto a 1010 sprocket core will work. The 350 bushings are a bit bigger than a 1010 bushings but it would be just like a slightly worn 1010 sprocket. If you swap out the rails for the 350 rails with the bigger pins and bushings, everything else will work.

[carolina crawler]

nice.......I am finding that my rails on both sides are pretty worn, leftside, way more then the right..so I do need rails....I know Lavoy mentioned to me about this once before, but Me being new at this, I wasnt quite sure what he ment, as I dont know much about the history of the JD crawlers until I became a owner of one, and what parts to use when your back is up against the wall in trying to locate OE parts....I guess my automotive thoughts on how to restore a vintage machine, dont hold water when it comes to industrial equipment. can lavoy hook me up with what I need to do the swap...., as he sent me me a price list on a large amount of parts that I am planing to order, when I secure the whole drive portion of this machine... hence, rails/ tracks and sprocket/s..can someone direct me to the amount of $$ needed to do this..........Thanks again MR. Wattson............Mark

[Lavoy]

Depends on whether you need rails only, or rails and pads. If you have two bolt rails now, or your 4 bolt pads are shot, you will need new pads as well. Rails vary in price depending on manufacturer and country of origin. I hope to know more on a potential new undercarriage supplier some time next month, that will give me some more options.
An off the cuff guess on rails with pads is $2500-$3000 depending on what type of pad you want/need. Sprocket rims are in the $125 range, but supply can be sporadic.
Lavoy