Bought a 440ICD as is -- the problems so far

[VTJD]

Thank you for this message board! I'm sure it will be a great help.

I've been looking at a 440ICD sitting in a clearing for a year now and finally called the owner and made an offer. I knew I'd be taking a chance as it has been there a few years, and he wouldn't comment on the condition or problems. But I couldn't resist, and bought it.

Got it moved home by a neighbor who does excavating -- using his trailer and some help from his big backhoe to load the crawler.

Took the cowling off--- the problems so far:

Heard a clacking metal sound when turning over the engine -- tried turnng over a few times, put my hand over the exhaust pipe and felt suction (is that normal?). Tried again, but the starter pinion stopped engaging.

Pulled the starter motor out, and felt the flywheel ring gear -- four or five missing teeth there -- hoping that is the cause of the metal clunk I heard rather than engine internals.

So the ring gear is a definite problem -- any suggestions for a replacement source, or tooth repair method?

I had heard from others that overheating was a problem with this crawler. The radiator was empty so I filled it to check for leaks -- found that one hose was leaking -- no biggie.

Then I looked carefully at all water lines and found a big crack in the thermostat housing. Must have frozen with water in it. I have a feeling this can be repaired with JB Weld from the looks of the particular crack, if not we can try welding, and if not then we'll have to find a replacement.

The fuel filter had been bypassed with a rubber hose and a small generic inline auto fuel filter. I pulled that off to drain the tank. The fuel came out real slow-- a slow trickle of drops even though there was ten gallons in the tank -- probably the tank screen or shutoff valve is dirty (no surprise) -- the last owner probably didn't understand that bypassing the fuel filter with a small one wouldn't help -- the problem is in the tank.

Wondering if the overheating could be due to the thermostat or maybe a lean mix from slow fuel flow?

I'd like to try to find out if I can start the engine before pulling it out to fix the ring gear -- any suggestions? I'd like to know if there is anything else I will have to replace repair or rebuild before removing the engine. What should I look for -- should I drop the pan, and remove the valve cover?

I've rebuilt gas engines before, but this is my first diesel. I'd appreciate any help in what to look for.

I also need a repair manual -- seems like there are a lot out there on the net -- any suggestions on which one to get?

Thanks for your help!

[Stretch]

Suction on exhaust is not normal. Probably stuck, dropped, or bent valve. If that is the case then what you are hearing is the piston hitting the valve. Hopefully you haven't knocked a hole in the piston.
As far as the fuel tank, if she has been sitting that long with the fuel in, then the fuel is no good. Empty tank and flush. MEK works good as a flush. Just don't smoke around it. Don't let MEK get to injector pump.
Stretch

[hunter41mag]

Diesels run cooler when lean, hotter when rich. So that is opposite of a gasoline engine.

I do not know if JB Weld would hold up with the expansion and contraction from temperature change. I would see about welding or replacing.

Also pull the valve cover to see if all the valves and injectors go up and down when turning the engine over by hand.

[VTJD]

Thanks Stretch and Hunter.

I'll take off the valve cover to look -- but how do you turn the engine by hand to watch the valves and injectors? What do you turn it with?

The battery was hooked up by the owner with positive ground -- I assumed that was right -- and did the same with my newer battery -- if not right could that also be a possible cause of suction at the exhaust?

The crawler is a 1960 I think--- S/N 459298.

Engine is GM diesel with the numbers stamped

[hunter41mag]

To turn engine over by hand first make sure engine stop is in the stop position!!!! The last thing you would want is to be turning the engine over by hand and have it start.
I have never worked on the 2 cylinder Detroit but one of the following should work.
If you have enough room get a socket with rachet on one of the bolts at the fron of the crank and turn it with that. If that doeas not work you can sometimes make the fan/generator belt tight enough and put a socket with rachet on the front center nut of the generator shaft and turn it over that way.
Also look to see if they are any openings on flywheel housing where you can catch the ring gear teeth with a screwdriver.

Yes, I also believe that positive ground is correct as my 1960 440IC is also positive ground.

[thomastractorsvc]

The 440IC Tractors (Gas) are supposed to be 6 Volt postive ground. My Owners Manual for the 440ICD states 12 Volt but nothing about positive ground. However you should check your electrical system for any modifications or conversions to 12 Volt.

If the starter was wired wrong i.e. causing it to spin in reverse direction the starter motor gear would be able to engage becuase it is spring loaded to release it.

[BKahler]

The 440IC Tractors (Gas) are supposed to be 6 Volt postive ground. My Owners Manual for the 440ICD states 12 Volt but nothing about positive ground. However you should check your electrical system for any modifications or conversions to 12 Volt.

If the starter was wired wrong i.e. causing it to spin in reverse direction the starter motor gear would be able to engage becuase it is spring loaded to release it.

I don't think changing the ground from negative to positive or positive to negative affects which way the starter spins. At least it didn't on any of the vehicles I have switched from positive to negative ground. The only real difference is how you flash the generator to polarize it correctly.

Looking at the ICD service manual it does show a positive ground 12 volt battery.

Brad

[jac]

The 440ICD is a 12 volt positive ground system. Make sure you have it wired correctly and give it a try. As for the ring gear, that will be fun. Need to remove the engine and then you can get to the ring gear. Can pry off the old one and get another one (I got one from Lavoy). Pretty easy to replace, just heat it up a little in the oven to get it to expand and then tap it on. Make sure you have the beveled side of the ring gear on the flywheel when you start to tap it on. When it cools, it will be tight.

[VTJD]

Thanks Hunter, Bkahler, Thomas, and Jac,

I will try the wrench on bolt method of turning the engine over, and will have (do have) the engine shutoff in the out position - also have detached the tank and drained it preparing to clean it and the tank screen and valve. Also I won't be turning it very fast, for obvious reasons! If it starts under those conditions, that would be a pretty good engine after all, I guess?

I probably won't be able to see the valves while turning it -- but I do have a digital camera that can take video for quite a few minutes, so I'll set that on the radiator and let that be my eyes. That way I can replay it too if needed.

I don't think the tight fanbelt method will work to turn this engine, it's kinda skinny, but I'll also try that one. thanks for the suggestion.

New Problem -- getting the valve cover off -- it's held on by 4 phillips head screws -- one of which is directly under the exhaust manifold where it bends over the head. Anybody with experience here got a smart way to undo it? Or do I have to take off the exhaust manifold?

Seems like a hex head head bolt here would have let you use a wrench from the side. Maybe I'll replace the screw with one once I get it off.

Ring gear: yup, I figured I'd have to pull the engine for that, thanks for the reminder about the direction of the bevel side when shrinking a replacement on. Does anybody here have one for sale?

Re: electrical system -- looks like somebody added a regulator and took the stock rotary light and charge rate switch out of the circuit. Thew switch was frozen up, and I saw the wires had all been cut when I opened the dash panel. This is similar to my 1951 JD Model M tractor. Switch went bad and somebody in the past added a regulator. That's a 6 volt positive ground system.

The crawler was rigged positive ground 12 V when I got it, so I'll trust that (and the confirmations you guys gave.)

Yup I guess the throwout wouldn't work if the starter were run backwards -- makes sense.

I'm confused that switching polarity wouldn't run a starter in reverse in a conversion, since it's a DC motor (but that's not important to getting this crawler running.)

Dumb Question: I've read about reversers here and assume the lever on the left of the cowl is it. The main transmision gear shifter pattern has a metal tab welded across the "R" position -- I'm guessing that is normal, and reverse shifting is done with the reverser lever?

Dumb Question # 2 And if the reverser is in the middle position, is the transmission disengaged from the engine? I ask that because when we moved the tractor, it moved freely even though we put it in gear and used the clutch to try to slow descent down a ramp -- the reverser was in the middle position, and I don't think the engine engaged when the clutch was let up a little. Seemed like there was no resistance at all. My guess (I hope) is that with reverser in neutral the engine is disengaged from the transmission. Otherwise, I have bigger problems than I thought!

Thanks again!

Oh yes -- what repair manual should I get ? John Deere(reprint?) or an outside manual?

[thomastractorsvc]

I got mine all on digits from BKahler he is listed here on the site. The reverser is like having an additional clutch the main clutch (foot pedal) and the reveser clutch packs (front and rear) The word is use the foot clutch when sifting the reveser into forward or reverse even though you can shift back and forth without the foot clutch. This will prevent premature wear and damages. My 5 speed transmission does not have a welded tab over the reverse slot and works in reverse gear just fine. Maybe yours had a reverse gear issue or someone dummy proofed it so if it was placed in reverse would not move forward with the reverser.

My 440ICD is set up with a 12 volt neg ground with a GM alternator works fine and easy to work on. Not original but mine is for use not shows.

[Howard Yoder]

Where are you from? if your close to Oh. and if yours has a good undercarriage I have one that has a poor undercarriage that I would sell for $1500. The motor runs but the injectors need cleaned if I get a chance to work on it and get it in better shape then I will have to ask more for it. The steering clutches work great.

[VTJD]

Thanks Thomas and Howard,

Howard: I live in Vermont, so purcahse of a crawler in Ohio isn't an option. At present I know I need a ring gear for the 440ICD but may or may not need other parts dependiing on what I find.

So if anyone has a lead on a ring gear or flywhell with gear, please pass it on.

Thomas:

I'm still unclear about the reverser being a "clutch" -- It seems like from your description it is both a clutch and a fwd/reverse shift lever combined. If reverse is blocked out by a tab on my main shifter, you seem to say I canb go into reverse anyway with the reverser lever.

My main question: What would happen if the reverser lever was put in the middle position -- neither forward or back -- does this disengage the transmission from the engine?

In other words, with the reverser lever in this position, could you easily move a non-running crawler by pushing it, even if the main transmission shifter was in, say second gear?

I ask because moving the crawler with the

[Stan Disbrow]

Hi,

Sounds like you have the differential-style reverser. These work by using two clutch packs, made of alternating fiber and steel discs (like a motorcycle ot auto trans clutch). One is for forward motion, and the other is for reverse. In between the clutch packs, there is a set of spyder gears. This is what provides reverse motion, much like when you rotate one tire on a car forward when it's up on a lift and then other one rotates in reverse as a result.

When in forward, the forward clutch pack makes the assembly solid, so the direction of rotation of the output shaft is the same as for the input shaft. When in reverse, the reverse clutch pack frees up the spyder gears and the output shaft rotates in reverse while the input shaft is still rotating forward.

Do NOT think that there is a neutral position with the reverser. There is not. It's designed to be snapped into forward or reverse. If you try and set it such that both the clutch packs are released, each is only partly released and tend to drag and that tends to bend the heck out of the tabs on the steel plates. After that, it's tear down time.

Also, do NOT, ever, try and use the thing as a power reverser. You must come to a complete stop, using the master clutch and master brake pedals, and *then* throw the reverser lever. If you don't then those metal tabs get wrenched again, and you'll be pulling the whole machine apart to repair it.

Also, do NOT (one says this a lot with this style reverser), ever, try and use the main transmission in reverse with the reverser in reverse to attempt to gain an additional forward speed. Guess what happens if you do?

This is why you have a plate welded over 'R' on the tranny and why I have a bolt stuck in the gate on my 420. You can use the tranny reverse if the reverser is in forward OK, but the risk is great enough for someone to get crossed up on this point that most folks locked out the reverse in the transmission (usually right after they discovered the fun times to be had putting in new clutches).

Now, maybe you didn't hurt anything with the reverser in no-man's land while putting the thing onto the trailer. The forces at that point would be low, and the drag light enough to slip things without damage. Or, perhaps the thing is already hurt and you couldn't hurt it any further. You won't know until you get it going and see how the reverser acts.

Note that there should be a definate 'snap' to the lever as it goes into both forward and reverse. If not, then you either have adjustment or wear issues (or both) with the clutch packs.

Also note that the reverser uses hydraulic oil and not 90 wt (which is used in the tranny and final drives). Sometimes people load the thing with 90wt which tends to make the thing really hard to shift, such that you don't get the 'snap' like you should, as the thicker oil takes up space between the clutch pack elements. Meaning if it don't 'snap' right, try flushing the thing with some hyd oil before tearing the whole mess apart!

Stan

[VTJD]

Thanks Stan, you've clarified alot, and given some valuable do's and don'ts once it is running.

As I remember it, I used the regular foot clutch while loading the crawler, plus the main shift lever was in neutral -- not in any gear.

The actual question about the reverser came when we were unloading it. Backing it by gravity down the ramps of a dump trailer. An equipment operator volunteered to do it. He put the tractor in gear (reverser lever position unknown) so he could slow it down with the clutch if things moved too fast for him while backing.

He reported that "the engine wouldn't hold the crawler" while coasting back down the ramps. I wondered whether the engine had actually revolved at all at this time. I didn't hear anything like an engine turning over. He just seemed to coast easily.

When I pulled the starter motor off, I noticed that the flywheel ring gear was still in the same position where the missing teeth were -- this led me to believe the engine hadn't turned over at all with the backing operation -- unless it rotated to the same position as it was before loading -- that would be a real coincidence .

I then wondered whether the reverser had been in some sort of neutral position and allowed the transmission to freewheel apart from the engine. That would explain the lack of resistance when backing down the ramps.

Naturally I'm hoping to find some reason to believe the transmission (and clutches) are okay -- and we just didn't have the engine engaged when he let the clutch up.

To answer your question about the reverser -- yes it does snap into forward and reverse -- it just seemed like there was an area in between -- and maybe that's where we had it while backing down (I'm pretty sure it was).

I didn't hear any bad noises throughout any of this.

[Stan Disbrow]

Hi,

You should be OK as far as damage you might have caused (not to say that there isn't any previous damage).

The thing would have had the clutch packs both in the halfway position, and so acted like a neutral. Sounds like nothing grabbed suddenly, so this should not have hurt anything.

The real problems occur when the engine is running and the lever is in no man's land and then the thing suddenly grabs one clutch and torques the heck out of those tabs along the outer rim of the steel discs. You know, I call them steel, but as I recall maybe they're not, but brass. I'll have to look at some I have at home to refresh my memory.

See, I have a couple sets of slightly torqued clutch packs in my 'maybe' boxes. Since they are only slightly torqued, they could be corrected with a little time at the workbench. They were nearly new before someone torqued them and had to have Dad rebuild their reversers.

Dad saved them since they were fixable and might come in handy on his 420c one day. I saved them, well, because Dad saved them. We've never needed them, and if I ever totally rebuild the old girl, she'll get brand-new ones (but I'll still save the ones Dad saved so long ago, just in case I ever get another machine that has worse shape ones and I don't want to buy new ones).

Stan