charging system
-
willy wagon
- 40C crawler
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:40 pm
charging system
either the generator or regulator are the culpret or both. is it wise to fix the problem or go to a 12 volt system? i plan on selling it.
-
Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
I prefer to keep the system original. Six volts works fine as long as you keep the connections clean. The hardest part these days is coming up with the number zero gauge battery-to-starter wire. I see way too many number four gauge wires on the old girls, and that leads to hard starting.
The big issue as I see it with a 12v conversion is that most folks ignore the starter and leave the 6v one in place. That's tough on the poor thing. If you go 12v, then do it right and pay the big bucks for a 12v starter.
One of the old tricks for these systems when they get a bit hard to start (mainly because the starter is in need of a rebuild) is to swap the 6v battery for an 8v one. The generator and regulator will charge 8v as-is and the batteries are availble at the dedicated battery stores and most ag stores. International was fond of using them right from the factory in the 50's.
Stan
I prefer to keep the system original. Six volts works fine as long as you keep the connections clean. The hardest part these days is coming up with the number zero gauge battery-to-starter wire. I see way too many number four gauge wires on the old girls, and that leads to hard starting.
The big issue as I see it with a 12v conversion is that most folks ignore the starter and leave the 6v one in place. That's tough on the poor thing. If you go 12v, then do it right and pay the big bucks for a 12v starter.
One of the old tricks for these systems when they get a bit hard to start (mainly because the starter is in need of a rebuild) is to swap the 6v battery for an 8v one. The generator and regulator will charge 8v as-is and the batteries are availble at the dedicated battery stores and most ag stores. International was fond of using them right from the factory in the 50's.
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
I put a 8 volt battery on my 40c and the salesman told me that this is what the southerners use.Now I have noticed that this is the first time that anyone has talked 8 volt it fit right in and for 12 bucks more has a lot more kick than the 6 volt battery I also think it is a lot easier on the ring gear than 12volt into a 6 volt starter I am a 12 and 24 volt guy so this is just an observation P.S.No I don't use 24 volt on the 40c .Digitup.
Do these look like the right size cables?
http://www.oldjdforyou.com/merchant2/me ... y_Code=141
http://www.oldjdforyou.com/merchant2/me ... y_Code=141
Not trying to step on Lavoy's toes, that site only sells popular reproduction parts to cover a wide range of JD models.
http://www.oldjdforyou.com/merchant2/me ... y_Code=141
http://www.oldjdforyou.com/merchant2/me ... y_Code=141
Not trying to step on Lavoy's toes, that site only sells popular reproduction parts to cover a wide range of JD models.
Donnie and Melanie are personal friends of mine, and we trade a lot of parts back and forth, absolutely 100% stand up people.
For what it is worth, I keep battery cables on hand too.
On the subject of 8 volt batteries in a 6 volt system, unless you adjust the regulator, for the most part you still have a 6 volt battery. Most regulators are adjusted for somewhere around 6.6 volts. If you charge an 8 volt battery on 6.6 volts, you will have for the most part a 6.6 volt battery. The other thing to be very careful about with 8 volt batteries is most of them are very low amperage (CCA). If you pencil out the available wattage (amps X volts = watts) you will find that you end up with significantly less available power than you would have had with a good 6 volt. As far as the increased voltage, yes it will help, but I have always maintained that the increased voltage is just a band aid fix for other existing problems within the electrical system.
Lavoy
For what it is worth, I keep battery cables on hand too.
On the subject of 8 volt batteries in a 6 volt system, unless you adjust the regulator, for the most part you still have a 6 volt battery. Most regulators are adjusted for somewhere around 6.6 volts. If you charge an 8 volt battery on 6.6 volts, you will have for the most part a 6.6 volt battery. The other thing to be very careful about with 8 volt batteries is most of them are very low amperage (CCA). If you pencil out the available wattage (amps X volts = watts) you will find that you end up with significantly less available power than you would have had with a good 6 volt. As far as the increased voltage, yes it will help, but I have always maintained that the increased voltage is just a band aid fix for other existing problems within the electrical system.
Lavoy
Just my two cents. I make all my battery cables out of welding lead, works great and more plyable. You can get any guage wire you want.
My expierence with 8 volt batteries is that it was common to replace 6 volt with them. The 6 volt charging system is set to charge at 7 to 8 volts any way. You don't have the problem with lights and any other auxillary system. If you use ohm's law you will see that there is less demand on an 8 volt battery than a 6 volt.
Stretch
My expierence with 8 volt batteries is that it was common to replace 6 volt with them. The 6 volt charging system is set to charge at 7 to 8 volts any way. You don't have the problem with lights and any other auxillary system. If you use ohm's law you will see that there is less demand on an 8 volt battery than a 6 volt.
Stretch
2010C Dozer, 2010C Loader
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
-
Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
Actually, there is only one small issue with using an 8v battery in these old girls. If you don't twiddle the regulator you'll discharge into the generator at idle. At operating RPMs, they charge fine. Just watch that ammeter and you'll know what it's up to.
The 8v trick was one just about everyone in our area of Upstate NY used on all the old iron for easier winter starting. Yes, the 8v battery has lower CCA, but they don't seem to have any different lifespan over the 6v ones in my experience. They are a little harder to come by, since they're not stocked by the auto parts stores.
I find that the increase in starter RPM from 8v is very helpful when the engine gets a little tired, and the cold compression is a tad low, yet not so far gone as to warrant an engine rebuild. This is the case with both my old 420c and 430w, so they both have 8v batteries. The 'M' has been rebuilt with high compression pistons, so it's still using a 6v battery and will start on the first compression stroke at any temperature even if the battery is cranking the starter so slow you'd swear it'll never start.
Stan
Actually, there is only one small issue with using an 8v battery in these old girls. If you don't twiddle the regulator you'll discharge into the generator at idle. At operating RPMs, they charge fine. Just watch that ammeter and you'll know what it's up to.
The 8v trick was one just about everyone in our area of Upstate NY used on all the old iron for easier winter starting. Yes, the 8v battery has lower CCA, but they don't seem to have any different lifespan over the 6v ones in my experience. They are a little harder to come by, since they're not stocked by the auto parts stores.
I find that the increase in starter RPM from 8v is very helpful when the engine gets a little tired, and the cold compression is a tad low, yet not so far gone as to warrant an engine rebuild. This is the case with both my old 420c and 430w, so they both have 8v batteries. The 'M' has been rebuilt with high compression pistons, so it's still using a 6v battery and will start on the first compression stroke at any temperature even if the battery is cranking the starter so slow you'd swear it'll never start.
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
I've been told welding lead won't handle the same current as real battery cable. The fine strands are for pliability when welding (low current draws). I did actually see one machine that had welding cable for a battery cable, and cranked so slowly as to be impossible to start in the cold, then the cable would get HOT! When it was replaced with normal cable the problem went away.
You have to use 2/0 for long runs and you can use 4/0 for shorter runs. I use welding cable on our cranes, trucks, backhoes, and any other eguipment and have no problems. I know on our 40 ton crane the run is about 10 feet and the welding cable does a fine job, less than .2 volt drop on that distance
You can't use the small cable you find on buzz boxes that most people have.
Stretch
You can't use the small cable you find on buzz boxes that most people have.
Stretch
2010C Dozer, 2010C Loader
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
If I remember correctly, the gauge measurement on wire refers to the total amount of wire and diameter of individual strands are not supposed to be a factor. I may be wrong, that class was a lot of years ago, but from what I remember, gauge is gauge whether fine strand, coarse strand, or solid wire.
The battery cables that I sell are 1/0, and are pretty fine strand as far as that goes, and they are battery cables, not welder cable.
Lavoy
The battery cables that I sell are 1/0, and are pretty fine strand as far as that goes, and they are battery cables, not welder cable.
Lavoy
Lavoy,
Your correct. Guage is the cross sectional measurement of wire. I have seen some battery cable that the individual strands are large and that makes the cable rather stiff.
If you get right down to it 1/0 welding cable and 1/0 battery cable have the same ampicite capacities. I prefer to use the welding cable because it is a little more forgiving when routing.
I use 1/0 to 4/0 depending on the application.
Stretch
P.S. By the way can you get any parts for the JD 20 winch?
Your correct. Guage is the cross sectional measurement of wire. I have seen some battery cable that the individual strands are large and that makes the cable rather stiff.
If you get right down to it 1/0 welding cable and 1/0 battery cable have the same ampicite capacities. I prefer to use the welding cable because it is a little more forgiving when routing.
I use 1/0 to 4/0 depending on the application.
Stretch
P.S. By the way can you get any parts for the JD 20 winch?
2010C Dozer, 2010C Loader
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
-
mini kahuna
- 1010 crawler
- Posts: 301
- Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:08 pm
- Location: rhode island
I have seen John Deere do stupid things with wire as well the 1970s Mannheim tractors had two forepaws right from the factory with a light ground from the battery to the firewall not even the block as this is where the ground is needed .I had two of those Deeres a 2140 and a 2950 and ran 2/0 from battery- terminal to block and firewall at the same time as charging system was not working on either when bought .The 2950 was built cab and the lights were yellow even the,stereo and dash worked like crap till fixed .I quickly discovered that green paint is not a conductor.Digitup.
wire guage
I retired from the phone company a few years ago and one of the thinngs we had to do was which wire size to use. One of the things we learned was that DC current is carried on the surface of the copper conductor. What this meant was that the finer the strands in the cable the greater the amp carring capacity of the wire. This is because the more strands the more surface area avaliabvle for the current to travel on. For instance a stranded #6 will carry the same amps as a solid #4. Also the finer the strands the more flexible the cable and the less likely to develope wear going around corner. This was very important to us as some of our runs from Charger to battery were greater than 50 feet. we often used cable "0" guage. I hope this make sense.
Bill
Bill
Bill 420c dozer 5 roller
N. E. Alabama
older is better just keep it greased
N. E. Alabama
older is better just keep it greased
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 152 guests