420 fiber plates

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BLS
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420 fiber plates

Post by BLS » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:54 pm

I'm rebuilding the clutches on my 420, when I removed the fiber and steel plates, the 'fiber' plates are semi metalic, not 'fiber' like I remember seeing on my MC.

Are these the correct fiber plates?

Thank you
Brian

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CELSESSER
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Post by CELSESSER » Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:34 am

Brian,
Yes you can get metailc "fibers". I think I remember Lavoy saying that they were a bit touchier to adjust correctly though.

Chuck
1960 440ICD #461094 w/ #63 manual blade Converted to a gas engine two owners ago.

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Post by BLS » Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:51 am

Chuck,
Were the metalic "fiber" prone to moisture and expansion like the fiber ones?

If the thickness is correct, would they be ok to reinstall, or would it be better to put 'fiber' back in?

Thanks
Brian

jdemaris

Re: 420 fiber plates

Post by jdemaris » Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:35 am

BLS wrote:I'm rebuilding the clutches on my 420, when I removed the fiber and steel plates, the 'fiber' plates are semi metalic, not 'fiber' like I remember seeing on my MC.

Are these the correct fiber plates?

Thank you
Brian
They work better than the fiber plates - just cost more. Deere offered them as an option with 350 and 450 crawlers - I don't recalled it ever offered for anything older from Deere. But - many aftermarket companies did.

Adjustment is no different - a dry clutch works the same - regardless. Big difference is - the metalllic plates dont' soak up moisture like the fiber plates and don't get stuck as easy.

Several other crawler companies made metallic plates standard equipment instead of a high-price option. Allis Chalmers was one of them.

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Post by Lavoy » Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:23 am

From my experience in a two cylinder or 1010 crawler, the metallic plates are substantially more aggressive than the fiber discs, and the clutch must be adjusted accordingly.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with them, they are just expensive.
Lavoy

jdemaris

Post by jdemaris » Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:54 am

Lavoy wrote:From my experience in a two cylinder or 1010 crawler, the metallic plates are substantially more aggressive than the fiber discs, and the clutch must be adjusted accordingly.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with them, they are just expensive.
Lavoy
I've put many in 350s (T44128) and can't say I ever noticed any difference. I had a 1010 apart last year and was looking to buy some metallic disks - and couldn't find any.

What is the different adjustment that you use? You've got me curious. The steering clutch pack has to disengage before the brake grabs -regardless of what it's made of. In our shop - as a general rule of thumb with a Deere crawler was - have the machine pointing up a steep hill in a forward gear - let both steering levers out and start climbing the hill - and then pull both back slowly. If all is right - there should be a short point in their travel where crawler will freely roll backwards, and then pull a little further and it stops. Other than that "free" zone, what do you do with metallics that's different?

Also - do you have a source for metallic disks for 420s to 1010s in place of the M3293T fibers?

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Post by Lavoy » Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:39 am

The surface is enough more aggressive than the fiber plates, that you have to set them up with less brake. Normally I set them by the book, 1 5/8" from dash, set the throwout there, and set the brake to contact there as well. If you do this with the metallic disks, the engine will bog down, and it will struggle to steer. If you set them the same way you describe on the 350's, you should not have any trouble.
I do not stock them, but I can get them. I have not priced them lately, but seems to me they are double if not triple the price of fiber discs. I guess if you are in a high moisture area and/or have trouble with sticking/growing fibers, then the extra cost would be well worth it.
Lavoy

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Post by CELSESSER » Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:42 pm

Lavoy, JD,

What effect does oil have on them? Just burn off if they slip enough? I realise that you still have the break band that is fiberous and you do need good oil control and that if you don't have good oil control you have other problems.

Chuck
1960 440ICD #461094 w/ #63 manual blade Converted to a gas engine two owners ago.

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Post by BLS » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:03 pm

Thanks for the information everybody.
The plates measure within limits and are going back in.
Brian

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Post by Lavoy » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:06 am

The oil is absorbed deeply in the disc, like a sponge. As the discs, the oil "boils" back to the surface and the clutch slips.
Lavoy

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Post by CELSESSER » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:22 pm

Lavoy,
I was referring to what effect the oil has on the metalic "fibers" . Are they porous also?

Chuck
1960 440ICD #461094 w/ #63 manual blade Converted to a gas engine two owners ago.

jdemaris

Post by jdemaris » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:56 pm

CELSESSER wrote:Lavoy,
I was referring to what effect the oil has on the metalic "fibers" . Are they porous also?

Chuck
The O.E.M. metallic disks from Deere or Allis Chalmers are not porous. But . . . since Deere never made any metallic disks for 2 cylinder crawlers that I've ever seen (in life or in the parts book) - the only ones out there are aftermarket - so it depends on what you have and who made them. Deere offered the metallic disks as a factory option for 350 and 450 crawlers. Allis Chalmers - after a certain serial-number range - used only metallic on all the H4s, HD4s, 653s, etc. - and only furnishes metallic to retrofit on the older H and HD3s.

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Post by Lavoy » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:48 am

I got it, on the metallic plates, it should not hurt them, but will undoubtedly reduce their friction level.
Lavoy

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Post by digitup2 » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:27 am

Deere , Allis ,and International Harvester ,got most of the clutches made by the same manufacturer Auburn Clutch made for them When I was at Allis I was there at the Plant .I forget where That plant was though when I was there they were making only John Deere parts at that spesific time .We were geting some clutches built for Italian build 5040 ,5050 garbage . They were blowing the clutches coming off the boat ! Auburn Clutch built new clutches for Allis so the tractors could even move .I didn't have much to do with the Allis Tractor division but this is one thing I did for them .Digitup.

jdemaris

Post by jdemaris » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:42 am

digitup2 wrote:Deere , Allis ,and International Harvester ,got most of the clutches made by the same manufacturer
Twin Disk also made a lot of clutches for Deere - e.g. the plates in the 1010 and 350 reversers and 2010 and 450 HL-Rs.

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