Lock washers on pad bolts???

[joeturner1977]

Quick Question- Do you use lock washers on the pads bolts??? Most of the bolts on my tracks have lock washers, Except the loose ones. The nuts are rusted tight but yet the bolt is loose. It is like the lock washer "Magiclly Disappeared". I am assuming the washer broke after the nut siezed.

I am planning on changing the loose bolts and thinking about going washerless.

How do they come from the factory? Locknuts? Loc-tite?

Any suggestions?

It's a lot easier to learn from experts, then to make your own mistakes.

-Joe

[Lavoy]

From the factory, they come with pinch type locknuts. I don't use locknuts at all. Use a plain fine thread nut, grade 5 NF bolt, and torque the snot out of them. I have done this on mulitple sets of rails that are on personal crawlers, and never had a problem. You may tighten up an odd pad here or there, but it will be a lot easier than it is with locknuts. Plus, with a regular nut, most of the time you don't even need to hold the nut with a wrench. When you hit the bolt with an impact wrench, the nut will spin up and hit the rail, and that is enough force to hold the nut until it is tight. Use a good 1/2" impact wrench, and you will know when the bolt is as tight as it is going to get. The hammering of the impact wrench changes tone, and the bolt head will no longer rotate.
Lavoy

[jdemaris]

Quick Question- Do you use lock washers on the pads bolts???

You don't want to use a split lock-washer on anything that gets torqued tight. They break, fall off, and leave you with a loose bolt. Most companies that make HD stuff like Deere use only thick solid hardened washers in high torque/stress areas. Deere calls their own brand "Torque Washers" which I guess is fitting.

The only time your're going to need any washers on track pads is when they've been torched off and the mounting area is in bad shape - or the holes have gotten real sloppy.

Use track pad bolts that are especially made for this purpose. They're worth the money. Any factory pad bolt you buy from Deere, Case, Cat, AGCO, etc. is going to be a speciality bolt and way stronger than a grade # 5. If you don't hardly use the crawler and it's a collector machine only - then it doesn't matter much. But otherwise, you need those special bolts. We had to replace many cheaper failed bolts on crawlers - even on the little crawlers like 420s. Doesn't sound like a big deal, but it can be a lot of work to fix a crawler that has all it's pad bolt loose. Even more aggravating when you lose a pad or two in the woods somewhere.

Deere track bolts are at least Grade # 9 and/or exceed metric 12.9 with more than 174,000 lbs. tensile strength. Fine threads and special high heads. Like I said, they are a specialty bolt and only made for this purpose. Same with the mating square nuts. I've seen many people buy cheaper bolts and I never seen any others of less quality that hold, not even grade # 8s.

1010s and 420s use T163470 or equiv, 350s usually have T40535, etc. Most will interchange with slight variations in head heights. Deere used to sell special ice bolts and they are still available elsewhere.

[Lavoy]

Factory John Deere track pad bolts for two bolt rails are not now, nor have they ever been anthing more than grade 5. I have a couple hundred on hand, and they are grade 5 bolts with no threads for the first portion, and a standard head with grade 5 markings. Had I not acquired them over the years for substantially less than Deere price, I would not even have the ones I do, it is a waste of money.

There are obviously domed head high grade 5/8" track pad bolts around, but they were never factory installed on the two cylinder crawlers, nor are they needed.
If you want the factory John Deere bolt in the picture, they are readily available from Deere, pary number T11297 for $1.63 each. I buy the same bolt, sometimes full thread, sometimes not, by the case at a local hardware place for $.59-$.99 per lb depending on what kind of sale they are running.
As to the nuts, as I stated earlier, they were a standard pinch style locknut with what would look like a radius on the top. They are currently obsolete as far as Deere part number, but can be bought at any good bolt supplier. Deere never used a square track nut on the two cylinder crawler, it is pointless, as there is no relief on the link for it to sit in like large crawler rails. I have used them in the past, they hurt nothing other than looking incredibly stupid on these little rails.
Lavoy

[jdemaris]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree when it comes to pad bolts in general. I've had to fix too may loose ones on old Deeres.

Loose pad bolts was a constant nuisance issue with all the little Deere crawlers. Especially the 420s and 440s that had the two-bolt pads instead of the four bolt pads. In my area, every farm had either a Deere or a Cletrac crawler. A popular passtime for farmers, when things were slow, was to replace loose pad bolts on the Deere crawlers. Cletrac didn't have that problem since their pads were riveted on. At that time, at the dealership, we started buying aftermarket bolts for the two-cylinder, and 1010 crawlers. Always better than Grade 8 and they worked much better then what Deere was selling at that time. They could be torqued tighter, and stayed tight.

I don't know what specific crawler the original poster here is working on, but my track-bolt comments are general ones. I wouldn't put a grade 5 bolt on any crawler pad. That's just my personal choice since I've seen so many running loose - especially old Deere crawlers. I can usually buy new grade 8 or 9 , 5/8" pad bolts for 30-40 cents each when I buy in bulk.

I wasn't suggesting that there is any need to buy track bolts from John Deere Co. Last time I bought such bolts direct from Deere, it was when they still were handling their own two-cylinder tractor parts in the late 1970s.
Since they now sub just about all those parts out, I don't know exactly what they are selling.

I did note, that on the Deere website, they state that all their pad bolts for all crawlers are stronger than grade 8. That includes the part number you cited. From the Deere parts site for 420 -440-1010 track pad bolts:

·High strength to resist shoe loosening
· Domed head for increased wear life
· Made from high strength steel
· One of highest strength fasteners in the industry; far exceeds grade 8 strength bolt
· 174,000 PSI minimum tensile strength

Like I said, I've never bought any of these newer bolts from Deere. The one I posted generically is a Deere OEM bolt for a 350 pad (1/2", not 5/8"). Grade 9

[Lavoy]

I think a lot of the trouble with the original setup was the locknuts. You waste a certain amount of torque just for the resistance of the locknut. Then if you need to retighten a loose bolt here or there, it is a real pain.
As to grade, are you saying that you actually had crawlers breaking a 5/8" bolt off? If so, then I can see the need for higher strength bolts in that case.
Lavoy

[jdemaris]

I think a lot of the trouble with the original setup was the locknuts. You waste a certain amount of torque just for the resistance of the locknut. Then if you need to retighten a loose bolt here or there, it is a real pain.
As to grade, are you saying that you actually had crawlers breaking a 5/8" bolt off? If so, then I can see the need for higher strength bolts in that case.
Lavoy

Nope, the older 5/8" bolts didn't break, they'd strip and couldn't be made to stay tight. It takes a high grade bolt to handle a lot of tightening torque when it has fine threads. Spent many hours with a torch cutting off old bolts and replacing. It was a routine repair with all the older Deere crawlers that got used everyday. I once visited a track shop that had two guys (two huge guys) that were knocking off those bolts with one hit via a large mall and chisel. Pretty impressive, but I'd hate to get hit by some of that flying shrapnel and I'd hate to be the poor guy holding that big chisel.

Like I said, I don't know what Deere is "reselling" now. Years back, they made their own track bolts which are a specialty item. Only made for that one purpose. Now, with the Indian/Chinese invasion, the industry standard for track bolts of any size - is fine thread and 10.9 for the cheap ones (grade and 12.9 for the better ones (grade 9 plus). If you look up track bolts right now on the Deere website for a 420, they claim they all exceed grade 8. True or not - I can't say. It's what Deere claims.

Many things have changed over the years with bolt grades. With the little Deere crawlers, there certainly was a problem with those used in my area with pads gettting loose. Can't think of a good reason why NOT to use a better bolt when available unless it is just for a collector machine that never gets worked.

On the subject of bolt grades, I'm having a heck of a time now with my Allis Chalmers HD4 diesel dozer. I'm rebuilding the engine, and as standard routine, I checked the rod bolts for stretch. One was slightly out of specs so I made the mistake of ordering new rod bolts from Alllis Gleaner. What a mess this has turned into. I got new, much stronger rod bolts which appear to be made by ARP. Also six pages of instructoins and diagrams asking me to have the rods remachined and modified before I can use these bolts. Right now, in this case, I wish I could get the old style bolts - new.

[jdemaris]

About my last post. I have no idea how that smiley face got in there.

[Lavoy]

The bolt in the pic is NOS, so not made in China, way too old.
How tight are you tightening the bolts? I am using a Snap-On half in impact at 175 PSI with large body fittings and half inch hose and I have not stripped any out.
lavoy

[Paul Buhler]

Another county heard from - We ran 450s and 350s on pretty rocky soils (ledge) often hung from the winch of a larger machine. Even with care, the bouncing was considerable, and we found that tracks either kept pads tight or seemed to need constant maintenance. In the field, we used bolts like John has pictured, tightened with a cheater bar and no lock washers or locktite. We would clean the chain with a wire brush, attach the pad and rap on it with a two pound sledge as we torqued it without lubricant. When the sound matched a surrounding "good" pad, and we grunted enough, we figured it was tight. Usually this was sufficient. We kept the wrenches, cheater bar and hammer handy so that we could stay on top of the pad tightness and eventually, we were in a pretty reliable position. I too found that rather than breaking, the threads would strip and you couldn't re-tighten them.

I'm happy to hear that cheaper alternatives exist on smaller less used machines (like mine). Paul

[jdemaris]

The bolt in the pic is NOS, so not made in China, way too old.
How tight are you tightening the bolts? I am using a Snap-On half in impact at 175 PSI with large body fittings and half inch hose and I have not stripped any out.
lavoy

Absolutely old stock since I haven't bought any new track bolts from Deere since the early 80s. At one time, I had a couple of 5 gallon buckets full of new ones (like in the photo). All from a dealer close-out. Back then, Deere made its own hardware and was trying to become a supplier for other tractor companies. Deere claimed that all their graded bolts exceeded minimum tensile strength requirements, i.e. a Deere grade 5 bolt was often near as strong as grade 8 bolts from other companies. I suspect there was some truth in that. Sometimes we'd buy bolts from Central Tractor, by the pound and I had those grade 8 bolts break in half on me, whereas Deere bolts did not. That just happened to me last night. Just bought some hardware, by the pound from our Tractor Supply Store (where Centrral Tractor used to be). I bought a bunch of 1/2 bolts, grade 5 for a project I'm working on. Went to tighten a bunch and snapped several right off, and I wasn't cranking very tight. Went down to the local NAPA and bought some Rockford grade 5 bolts and they were fine. Night-and-day difference. So, obviously, grade markings on a bolt don't always tell the whole story. What range on the scale they are, and quality control counts also.

In regard to stripping - I never stripped a new one when it was specially made track bolt. I'm talking about tractors out in the field. They'd have loose pads and the old bolts would not tighten up any more (worn and stripped.) I assume victims of rust and wear from the pads shucking around for years. Point is, they should not have come loose to start with. Never used a torque wrench on one either, just a big breaker bar. When I was doing this stuff on a daily basis, I had a pretty good feel for proper torque. We put new grade 8 bolts in at that time, and I never saw those get loose again. Now, grade 8 appears to be the minimum in the pad-bolt world and a grade a little above 9 is the standard (12.9 metric).

I realize that much of this is moot for a collector working on a small crawler that doens't really get worked anymore. But for a machine that does - my personal choice would be the best track bolts available as long as the price wasn't unreasonable.

[Lavoy]

The bolt I showed in the pic is NOS as well, but came from the parts bag with the factory part number for the two cylinder crawlers. While I have no doubt the bolts John is showing are Deere, until I see that style bolt in a Deere parts bag, with a two cylinder part number, I still do not believe that the high grade domed head track bolts were ever used on the two cylinder crawler from the factory. Not that I have seen every crawler in the world, but I have had somewhere past 100 pass through my hands, seen a lot more, and have never seen a rail with domed bolts unless I knew that it had been worked on in the past. I have also had some crawlers come with borderline NOS rails and pads that had the style bolt I show in the pic.
Lavoy

[jdemaris]

It wasn't my intention to start any kind of argument here. With some types of repairs and/or upgrades, there is more than one way to do things.

Our experiences vary for several reasons, I suspect.

I was working on Deere crawlers back to the 60s, mostly at Deere dealerships. I've never worked on a collector's machine; only those getting used to work - and many really got hammered. I suspect that many you work on are not used that way anymore (just a guess).

Tractors tend to wear differently in different areas of the country. The first Deere dealership I worked at was in northern New Jersey. There, the soil is mostly soft sandy clay. As a result, crawlers and backhoes hold up much better there then in the area I'm in now. There are many problems that did not exist there, that are very common here in central New York. Here, just about everywhere is up or down hills and the soil is hardpan shale. Many loose crawler pads on older crawlers, torn up transmissions, frames, final drive housngs, backhoe pivot points, booms, etc. Night-and-day difference. Many dealers in my area looked for used equipment down south to bring up here to sell - since it was usually in much better shape. I have no idea what things are like in your area where you've gotten your experience, but they may differ a bit from here.

From the many crawlers I've worked on over the years, especially the two cylinder Deere machines, loose pads was an issue. Maybe not everywhere, but it certainly was here.

One familiar sight to me was when I bought a 420 crawler-loader last year in Michigan with an extra set of tracks. Half the pads on all four tracks are loose and all appear to have the original style bolts. For those pads that did come loose, I'm going to stick a better grade bolt in the pads. Just a personal choice of opting for a 180,000 lb. rated bolt instead of a 120,000 lb. rated bolt. To me it's a no-brainer when the cost is not that much different.

[Randynscottsboro]

JDM, I have found the same thing true as in your last post about the different parts of the country having a different effect on the same type equipment. I ran sevearl truck shops all over the USA and the same trucks with same spec's had different life exptancies on the same parts.
The dust conditions had effects on service intervals and componet wear. Road conditions had effects on tires, springs and ect. Cold had it's effects too.
So in agreeing, what works for one may not work for all.
My 2 cents worth and you can't buy much with that.
Randy

[Lavoy]

It's not an arguement, just a discussion, no problem.
The worst set I have ever had as far as getting loose was on an all green 420 many years ago, actually my first 420. It was operator abuse plain and simple, you couldn't blame it all on the bolts, but they were trashed. He had run the crawler with the bolts loose for so long, that with 14" pads with the grouser at about 1 1/2" tall, the back of the pad would touch the ground. You could stick your hand in between the pad and the link when the crawler was on a hard surface. Funny thing, I still have those pads today, the grousers were so nice, and they were snow pads, that they have been on every 420 I have owned since.
Lavoy