440IC can't get spark

[Tim_in_IA]

I have been struggling with my 440IC for some time now. I just can't get a spark. I want to make sure I have everything wired right.

I want to confirm that they are positive ground from the factory?

And also does this mean that I hook the wire from the on switch to the positive post or to the negative post? I am confused since that is actually negative if it is a positive ground. When I have it setup with the wire from the start switch to the neg post I read neg 6volts on the coil. Then the other side terminal on the distributor goes to the negative terminal on the coil correct?

Also I got a new cap, rotor, and wires from lavoy. I notice that the rotors center contact rides on a plastic bump inside the distributor cap. Is something else supposed to go in between to make the contact or is this space there intentionally?

It looks like the timing is close as the arm closes when it nears the pickups but I am just not getting spark. Very frustrating.

I am getting ready to go 12 volt standard but I just would like to hear it run since it hasn't in almost 2 years now.

I am picking up a new coil today (2nd one) and hopefully a new capacitor for the dist internals if I can find one but any help you guys can give me will really help out. I'm stuck!

[Tim_in_IA]

I got a new condenser and coil. Hooked it up just like the diagram in the service manual. positive to positive term, neg to negative. The dist has a flat surface so I turned it to that and so the pickup was just off it. Still no spark. I don't even have the regulator or generator connected so I could eliminate any shorts. What is left? Very anxious at this point.

I have the battery charger, farm size hooked up so power should not be an issue. Reading between 6-7 volts.

Are there any distributor wizards out there that can help me?

[snoopy]

Sounds like yopu need to make sure that you havae battery voltage going to the distributor. No sense in working on the distributor if there is no voltage getting to it in the first place. My be a bad ignition switch. If you have a volt meter check for battery voltage at the terminal coming from the battery. If you cdon't have a voltmeter, you can make a test light out of a bulb and wire. doesn't have to be 6 volts. I have a test proble that i use all the time checking for voltage. get a light and you have the power to that point. start at the battery and work your way to the distributor checking everything inbetween.

the coil would probaly work with it hocked up either way,but will throw a better spark in the correct direction. with a positive ground system, the postive post goes to ground. the every thing else goes to the neg post.

The distributor and coil will work even if the battery installed backward. The generator will not tho. All the distributor and coil want is to compleete the circuit. If you ahve a full circuit and then you interrupt that circuit, then you will gete a spark out of the coil. You should have the same voltage on both sides of the coil.

Hope i don't confuse you but good luck

[shinnery]

For a 6v positive ground system you should have the positive terminal of the battery tied to ground and the negative terminal tied to the ignition switch. The wire out of the switch should go to the (-) negative terminal on the coil and the (+) positive terminal of the coil should be tied to the distributor. Then when you turn the switch on you should read -6V at the (-) terminal of the coil, If the points are open you will also see the -6V on the (+) positive terminal. when the points close this voltage should drop to close to 0V.
If every thing is working right you should be able to take the high voltage wire loose from the dist and hold it near (within 1/4") of ground and take dist cap off and with an insulated tool open and close the points and get an arc at the end of the high voltage wire. If this doesn't happen and you have the voltages above you probably have a bad coil. Maybe this will help figuring things out.
Bryce

[Tim_in_IA]

I have the -6v at the coil. I will check the readings when the points are open and closed to see if it is doing what you say. Thank you!

[Tim_in_IA]

Ok so I went through those tests. Lead from switch (well not really ) I don't have a switch right now so hot from neg batt side to lead to coil direct connected. That blue lead to coil goes to negative term on coil and reads -6 volts. When contacts were open both sides read -6. when closed they both read -still so I replaced contact. Now when closed pos side of coil reads just under 0, like -.5 or something. So at this point I think I am in business! But still no spark. also tried having coil hot connection 1/8 to 1/4 away from engine and no spark. Also all these readings are taken using a pos ground from engine on electric meter so I know engine has good ground. So does this mean that the new coil I got is defective? I am taking it back to the store now for an exchange.... So close I can taste it..

[Tim_in_IA]

store is out of 6 volt coils so I have no way to try it today. Is it really that simple that a good coil should have -6 volts reading on all terminals when open and that it should cause a spark it the center contact wire that goes to the dist is brought close to the engine? Or is there something else that could be wrong?

[shinnery]

What is happening is when the points are closed there will be current flowing thru the primary winding of the coil and a magnetic field built up around both windings in the coil. Open the points and the field collapses inducing a voltage in the secondary winding. This is the voltage that causes sparks to fly. The condenser or capacitor in the distributor is to reduce the arcing across the points when they open, Increasing the life of the points. In most coils the two windings are tied together and to the (-) terminal of the coil. If you take an ohmmeter you will read less than 5 ohms across the (+) and (-) terminals and over a thousand ohms from the secondary terminal to the (-) terminal. Just a little info as to what is happening.
Bryce

[Tim_in_IA]

Bryce I am reading 5ohms from pos to neg term and 6k ohms from negative to secondary. So this coil is good?

Where does that leave me then? What else could it be? If the condenser is just to save the life of the points should I try a run without it just to see if it is defective?

For starting I just need a battery, coil, and distributor right? no other points of failure aside from a weak ground? My ground seems to be ok as far as the testers are concerned. I am just puzzled why it isn't sparking.

[Gil]

The wire to the points may be grounding out against the distributor. There is a insulator block around the wire where it enters the distributor. The insulation deteriorates over time. It may look fine. Remove the insulator block and wrap the wire with electrical tape instead to test if this is the problem.

[Tim_in_IA]

Ok so I took that bolt with the insulator out of the crawler and still no spark. At this point I am really at a loss. So I take the coil out, put brand new leads on it, take it over to the battery and hook the negative up. THen I manually take the other contact and while holding the dist contact close to metal try grounding the other contact + at different points of the body. By this time it was getting dark, which was a good thing at this point Guess what? I got a yellow spark from time to time. So I do have a bad ground. I have a yellow spark since the wind blew a couple contacts together and slowly drained the battery. So now I have a plan of attack at least. New wiring all the way through and maybe run some extra ground wires. Wow. Someday, it might run again!

[jdemaris]

Ok so I took that bolt with the insulator out of the crawler and still no spark. At this point I am really at a loss.

I think you're over-complicating things. You need to got at it in some sort of logical order.

First - find out if there is no spark anywhere, or . . . there is spark coming from the coil but it is getting lost in the distributor section of the distributor. Hook a spark plug to the wire that comes out of the coil and have it laying on a ground, and then, crank and check for spark. By doing this, you are bypassing the rotor and cap. If it works, you then know you're losing the spark is the rotor area (distributor section of the cap and center contact. If STILL no spark, do this. Make sure power is getting to the coil. Have the points in a position so they are open. Now, short them out with a screwdriver. Every time you do that, there should be spark at that wire and plug coming directly out of the coil. Points should also spark every time you short them. If not, it's time to check the points with an ohm-meter or continuity tester. Unhook the coil primary wire from the points-post. If you don't, you'll get a false reading due to the coil windings. Now check for continuity between the points post and ground. Should be none when the points are open, and full continuity when they are closed. It must be this way or you cannot get spark.

[Tim_in_IA]

Ok so I took that bolt with the insulator out of the crawler and still no spark. At this point I am really at a loss.

I think you're over-complicating things. You need to got at it in some sort of logical order.

First - find out if there is no spark anywhere, or . . . there is spark coming from the coil but it is getting lost in the distributor section of the distributor. Hook a spark plug to the wire that comes out of the coil and have it laying on a ground, and then, crank and check for spark. By doing this, you are bypassing the rotor and cap. If it works, you then know you're losing the spark is the rotor area (distributor section of the cap and center contact. If STILL no spark, do this. Make sure power is getting to the coil. Have the points in a position so they are open. Now, short them out with a screwdriver. Every time you do that, there should be spark at that wire and plug coming directly out of the coil. Points should also spark every time you short them. If not, it's time to check the points with an ohm-meter or continuity tester. Unhook the coil primary wire from the points-post. If you don't, you'll get a false reading due to the coil windings. Now check for continuity between the points post and ground. Should be none when the points are open, and full continuity when they are closed. It must be this way or you cannot get spark.

I know it sounds like I am complicating it but I have already done what you suggested above. The problem is in the wiring. There must be some weak connetion or ground somewhere. With all the tests you mentioned above I was never able to get spark. I could only get it when I went right to the battery.

[jdemaris]

I know it sounds like I am complicating it but I have already done what you suggested above. The problem is in the wiring. There must be some weak connetion or ground somewhere. With all the tests you mentioned above I was never able to get spark. I could only get it when I went right to the battery.

Can't be unless your setup is defying science as we know it.

If the points are making and breaking and are connnected to one coil primary and are grounded to battery ground . . .

coil is good and the other primary is hooked to the battery power . . .

condensor can store a charge for at least a few seconds and is NOT shorted/grounded . . .

It HAS to work. If it does not, you are missing at least one of the aforementioned.

[Tim_in_IA]

I worked on it more tonight. Took old wiring out. New wires to coil and I put an extra ground to a screw on the side of the distributor. I got a spark to the body with the dist cap off. when I put the cap on and still used wire from the coil to the frame to check for spark the spark went away. Dist cap didn't have anything hooked to it at all, not even the wire coming from the coil. Why would the cap itself make the spark go away? It's a new cap btw.

To confirm I took the cap off and the spark returned. So somehow the cap is shorting it out. Again let me be clear the coil wire wasn't even going through the cap, still trying to just spark to frame.

I am defying science I guess and I am doing all the steps. Trust me.

So do I buy another cap then?