Install reverser or not - 440ICD dozer

[lastchancegarage]

I've read a lot of post on guys having problems with reversers and am wondering if they actually make for a weaker drivetrain in a dozer. I picked up a parts machine a while back which has, what appears to be, a good reverser in it. I'm wondering if rebuilding it and installing it in my 440 will be more trouble than it's worth in the long run. I've never used a machine with one so I'm trying to weigh the benefits to putting one in now. Any ideas either way? Thanks.

Scott

p.s. If I was to rebuild reverser, are parts still available for them?

[Lavoy]

The weakest part of any reverser is the guy sitting on the seat. If run correctly, and maintained properly, they will give no problem. I have had a couple of crawlers without reversers that had almost 1/4" of the teeth worn off of the input shaft from people grinding the gears going from 2nd to reverse. I have always found it interesting that people talk about the fragile reverser when an operator destroys them, but if the teeth are ground off the gears in the transmission, they are not fragile, that is just a poor operator. A poor operator is a poor operator, and if a component fails because of it, it is operator error, not the fault of the component.
Lavoy

[lastchancegarage]

Lavoy,
I hear what you're saying about poor operators. Much of the work I've had to do is because of the "run it into the ground" mentality of the previous two owners. I was just curious with all things being equally maintained, did the reverser drivetrains exhibit more trouble/hassle than their non-reverser counterparts. Guys that have had both and maintained them would know. Maintenance can be the difference a Chevy V8 and a Jag V12. Both make enough power but you're definitely going to be spending more time in the tune up department with one over the other. Just curious before I press on with the finals. Thanks.

Scott

[Lavoy]

I have never had a reverser that we owned or that I had rebuilt go down for any reason. I, like you, have had some come in that were junk, or bad, but I never blamed one of them on honest wear. It is always abuse, or lack of maintenance.
Obviously on a crawler that is used daily, even with proper maintenance, a reverser will wear. Then again, so will the engine, transmission, final drives, etc.
Lavoy

[mini kahuna]

I agree Lavoy,jd reversers are probably the best ever made,they really are tough s.o.b.s
every unit I have seen with problems was from lack of maintenance or slamming them back and forth for years.
once you use a reverser machine you will not like running a direct drive machine from then on thats for sure.
my old 1010 is a real treat to operate,the reverser in that old girl rivals some of the new stuff out there.

[jdemaris]

I've read a lot of post on guys having problems with reversers and am wondering if they actually make for a weaker drivetrain in a dozer.

I was fixing them at a time when the crawlers were all day, every day users - not collectors or part-time machines. From what I saw, the early all-gear reversers were certainly a weak-link in the driveline (like used in 420s). We had some good customers who took good care of their equipment and had problems with them. I suspect though, that most times wheh they actually broke a gear, it was done by the almost-sober hired hand. Personally, I think it's a bad idea to stick a full gear, non-synchro reverser in anything. It's asking a lot of someone to come to a full stop and patiently/gently shift between direction changes. Remember when most cars and trucks had no synchro in 1st gear? If so, remember how many people made the grinding clunk going into 1st?

The next reversers with the two, over-center-locking wet clutch packs , such as used in 440s were built pretty rugged. Even so, we still pulled many out at customer's requests and converted to all gear drive. Considering how rugged this second series was, I suspect it was a maintenance issue that some people figured was not worth having. As recall, every one we ever converted was a loggers machine. These reversers, as I said are impressively rugged and a lot stronger than many other small crawlers were using at the time. Checkout a Cletrac OC4 reverser sometime. Case and other farm tractors had live PTO packs with similar setups and they all required two things. Oil and clutch adjustment once in awhile. If either was lacking, they'd burn up.

The reversers after that, as used in 1010s and 350s are the first Deere hydraulic power-clutched reversers in crawlers. And again, they CAN be a weak link simply because reverse is the weakest drive part. So, some people that really worked their machine back-grading had problems early on. But, that was the 1010s and early 350s. Then Deere made reverse stronger by enlarging the size of the counter-bearing between the input shaft and output shaft. After that, the isolator drive became the weak link. Funny thing is now, 350s without reversers are popular- at least around here. That because if you own one, you're never going to have to worry about the expense of fixing one - and they are very expensive to work on. Gear transmissions made need a few gears or bearings now and then - but they don't just all together wear out like some hydraulic transmissions do.

If I had a 440 twin-clutch reverser in good shape, I'd be glad to have it. It makes me kind of sick now when I think of all the complete units I threw out years ago.

[lastchancegarage]

Thanks for the feedback guys. JD, you really put things in prospective with that little history lesson. I'm going to bring the remains of the parts trans into the garage and take it down to see what it looks like inside. Hopefully there's no serious damage and a rebuild is in order. It'll definitely add time to the project but at this stage, if it's going to happen, now's the time with the tracks off.
Lavoy,
I've heard guys talk about the expense of the clutches but are there any parts to these reversers that are no longer available? Do you have a standard rebuild kit for these? Just wondering if there are any show stoppers when you look at these things. Thanks again guys.

Scott

[JimAnderson]

Scott,
All of the needle bearings and seals are available.The thrust washers
both cupped(for the spider gears) and flat are available.I hope you don't
find wear on the pins in the differential as the short one is $91.00 from
Deere.The bronze shifting collar is availble and in my opinion at $218.00
a steal.I couldnt get the material to make one for that price.I don't know if
the gears are still available but if they are I would hate to have to pay
for them.I would replace all of the needle bearings even if they look
good because they are cheap and I haven't found a good way to make sure they are absolutely clean.The sinterered and steel discs are
available but are not cheap.
I'm only redoing my reversers for restoration purposes.I operate
my machines mostly in wooded conditions and a reverser while nice
just makes me back into stuff faster.JimAnderson