turning pins and bushing??

gus · Post by **gus** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:16 pm

At what point is it worth it?? I will have the tracks off later this month. I haven't done any measuring but I can feel wear. The sprockets look good so no problems there.

The local Cat shop will turn them for $450.00. Is it worth it? The 420 will only be used for spring cleaning on a couple of logging roads and winter snow pushing. They mentioned the light rails "might stretch". Is that a common thing??

I'll see how "snakey" they seem after I get them off. At this point it's more questions.

Post by **Lavoy** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:54 pm

Turning pins and bushings will shorten the overall length of the track somewhat, but will do nothing as far as "snake". That is a function of internal wear, and does not go away. You can measure the pitch of the track to see how bad they are worn. Measure across 5 pins (4 links) and see what the measurement is. 23" is new, 23.51" is 100% worn.
Not sure what they mean by stretching, my guess is they mean the holes the pins and bushings go through in the links, and that is possible. Replacement pins and bushings are a few thousandths oversize to compensate for this.
Lavoy

gus · Post by **gus** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:33 am

I can't get the track real tight but it appears near 100% worn. What will turning the pins do besides shorten the track?? Will I get some added time? A track thrower?

OR, just a waste of money?

Like I said, very limited use, but I don't want a continued problem either.

Post by **Lavoy** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:47 pm

Turning the pins and bushings will bring you back to probably 70-80% of new pitch, so you will definitely gain time there. It will do nothing as far as snake, and often times a snakey track is more likely to derail, especially if the rest of the undercarriage is worn.
My personal opinion on these small rails has always been that turning is a waste of time, for a few reasons. It does nothing to eliminate snake, the labor is the same or higher than replacing, and somewhere down the road, we may not be able to get pins and bushings, so do it when you can. The last part unfortunately may already be upon us. Other than Deere as far as I have been able to determine, there are no 420 size pins and bushings available anywhere. One of the two remaining manufacturers of that size pin and bushing went out of business a few months ago. I get from one call a month to one call a week looking for pins and bushings including overseas customers. The only remaining supplier tells me there are none in the pipeline, and no production slated for the near future.
SOOOOO, with that in mind, if you are so inclined to spend the money, and plan on owning the crawler, I would have them turned for that price. It will get you by for quite a while, and if pins and bushings become available again, you can always buy a set for the future.
Lavoy

gus · Post by **gus** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:09 pm

Looks like turning is the only option right now!!

At least the tracks are one of the "easy" things to work on. Nothing else to remove first.

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What would it take to make pins and bushings??? Is this a viable business venture?? I know of a couple of machine shops that are a bit slow right now and is it something that can be made on CNC equipment. Materials?? Heat treating and hardening is also available.

jdemaris · Post by **jdemaris** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:45 am

gus wrote:Looks like turning is the only option right now!! At least the tracks are one of the "easy" things to work on. Nothing else to remove first.

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What would it take to make pins and bushings??? Is this a viable business venture?? I know of a couple of machine shops that are a bit slow right now and is it something that can be made on CNC equipment. Materials?? Heat treating and hardening is also available.

Turning the pins and bushings often works fine for the type of use you mention. Sometimes you have to tack-weld the bushings and pins in, which is no big deal.

I've made pins and bushings for several old crawlers. You can buy the correct size pin and bushing stock in lengths. But, it's time consuming and expensive to cut them and get them hardened. At present, it's cheaper just to buy them new from Deere. Only worth it when they are no longer available and you must have them.

Post by **Lavoy** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:40 am

Like John says, it is time consuming to cut them. If you had them programmed on a CNC machine, especially one with a feeder on it, then the time is not an issue. The next problem is the heat treating, not a problem as far as doing it, just the cost. It is all doable, just depends on how economically it can be done, and what scale it has to be done on to make it viable.
I am working with one of my undercarriage vendors to see if they will tool them up. They are definitely receptive to the idea, no it is just a matter of if they will.
Lavoy

gus · Post by **gus** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:41 am

In the winter, I have the time to make a set.

The question is, what is the material and how hard??

Gus

Post by **Lavoy** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:07 pm

Don't know what to tell you one the steel, no way to really know. My guess would be something like 4140, it has to have enough carbon in it to heat treat. As to hardness, my guess is in the 60 or better Rockwell, but would be easy to test an existing pin or bushing to find that out.
Just got another e-mail back on pins and bushings, still no production slated. I reiterated my desire that they make them again, but I suppose they could really care less what I want.

Lavoy

gus · Post by **gus** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:57 pm

When turning the pins and bushings should the master link pin and bushing be replaced with new??

Pat · Post by **Pat** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:39 am

Lavoy, don't understand why no one will make them. If we were to believe the newscasters, this economy is so bad, every one is looking for new business. I would think that many small factories that sold to the auto makers would be looking for opportunities to keep going. Unfortunately, that may be why the chinese have been so successful. They see a market, reverse engineer the product, make it and sell it. Usually at a lower price because they use inferior materials! Would surely like to see an American plant that is considering layoffs or reduced production, to jump into the market, even if it is a small project!

Post by **Lavoy** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:02 am

For whatever reason, the US does not really get into undercarriage. The biggest, longest running undercarriage manufacturers are overseas. The Italians seem to have been in it the longest, Spain, Korea, and the Chinese are newer to the game. I got an e-mail last week, that one of my suppliers warehouses does show product on order, but still no potnetial delivery date.
Lavoy

lastchancegarage · Post by **lastchancegarage** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:36 pm

Lavoy,
If you had to guess at current demand for these track pins, how many would you need for 420's, 440's, etc. Are there any sized pins that cross model lines? The reason I ask is I was in a machine shop today and was talking about the scarcity of parts for these older crawlers. This shop has just installed newer SWIS (brand name?) machines which have feeders and produce tens of thousands of pins continuously. These machines can hold dimensions to the tenths so accuracy shouldn't be a problem. I mentioned 4140 material and was told it was nothing for these machines to cut. They deal with heat treated parts all the time so all they'd need is the hardness requirements. Does anyone have any technical data (factory specs, blueprints, etc.)on these pins on this site? That would definitely help. The question then turned to numbers. I know I've read from time to time on this site where guys have had no luck finding pins/bushings for certain models. If you could get a count or maybe already have a number in mind, I can forward their number to you so you could talk price. If there's enough demand, it could be an option. Let me know.

Scott

Post by **Lavoy** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:49 pm

Demand is the great unknown. A few years ago, I was tying up thousands of dollars in pins and bushings because I was buying them when I could get them, and insure I had inventory. Never fails, when you have inventory, nobody wants anything, when you don't, everybody does. After a few years of paying interest on slow moving inventory, I learned my lesson, and now no longer stock large quantites of pins and bushings, and now here we are. I am about out of stock, and no short term product coming. It is just not cost effective for me to stock quantities of slow moving parts when I could be putting that money in things that I sell hundreds or thousands of per year.
As to spec, hardness can be tested easily, composition is a little harder and costlier. I would be hesitant to sell something that is okay on the hardness, but we have no idea of longevity, and no one to go back on as far as warranty if the product fails, or does not stand up.
For example, if you had pins and bushings manufactured for your crawler, and brought them to me to install, and they do not stand up, that has nothing to do with me. If I have them made, and they do not stand up, now I have to warranty them.
I would have no problem talking to them, that never hurts. I can get them at least some specs, and samples that should allow them to reverse engineer them enough to get an idea on cost.
Lavoy

lastchancegarage · Post by **lastchancegarage** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:45 pm

Lavoy,
I just sent you a pm with the contact info. If you don't get it soon, let me know. I still have a pm in my outbox from 2006

so I'm not sure how good the system works. Good luck.

Scott

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turning pins and bushing??

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