440IC Final Woes...

lizrad999 · Post by **lizrad999** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:58 pm

After playing on the crawler for days on end, I noticed I had no power on the right side. Everytime I pulled the left steering arm the machine would barely turn. SO, I removed the plug, and sure enough my clutch and brake band was soaked with oil. Hauled her home and took her apart. (first time mind you)
It was not pretty, but I started to take apart the final. The final drive shaft was a little bit loose upon disassembly so I have ordered new bearings and seals. I also noticed the splines where it fits the pinion gear are pretty worn. The pinion gear is in bad shape. (in the market for one or two of each used and cheap)(13tooth) On the pinion gear, the external teeth look as though they had rocks or something in between the teeth as it meshed up with the bull gear. Only the tops of the teeth are damaged. Bull gear looks fine.

Also, I noticed as I took the clutch plates out (I have a one piece brake drum) starting from the pressure plate, I had 8 composite disks and 9 steel ones. Only problem is it started with a composite, and ended with two steel? Is that correct? I checked all of the disks, and they are all in spec and look good.
Yes I cleaned the oil off.
Yes I know everyone on here says you can't clean the composite disks once they get oily. What can I say, I'm hard headed....
I wiped all of the disks down with gasoline and a rag, and followed up with a generous dose of Purple Power (this stuff rules!) then rinsed everything off with water. I'm so impressed with myself, I simply HAVE to at least try them.....
Anyhow, any help on the proper order of the disks would be great and anyone with Final parts for sale, I'm all ears!
Thank you!

Post by **Lavoy** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:17 pm

That is a high serial number 440, it should have 8 steels, 8 fibers. Someone tried a band aid fix and threw in another steel. I hope you are ambitious as well as hardheaded, because you will be pulling a final again to replace clutches. It is NOT possible to remove embedded petroleum products from fiber clutch material. It will feel dry on the surface, but about an hour of useage later, the discs will bleed out the embedded oil as the clutch pack heats up, and you will be in exactly the same place you were to start with except with may hours of wasted labor. Been there, done that, learned my lesson the hard way.
13 tooth pinions will be difficult at best to find, they were only used on gas 440's at the very tail end of production. At one time I had a couple new ones left, and was just discussing making some more with a vendor last week. The tooth damage is from the bearings being run out and the rollers drop down in the bottom of the final and the two gears play nutcracker with the bearing rollers. The end result is normally a blown case, and wrecked gear or two.
Lavoy

lizrad999 · Post by **lizrad999** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:06 pm

Lavoy,
The Bull gear looks fine, just the Pinion is messed up. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can I change out the pinion gear with the final installed? If so, I could try cleaning up the one I have until another can be located.

Another thought, can I change the drive shaft and the pinion so a 14 tooth can be used? If I did that, would I have to change the brake drum too?

If the disks are 8 and 8, which one goes against the pressure plate? Do you currently have the fiber disks in stock and what's the cost for both sides? How about the brake bands? I know I need one maybe two since I haven't gotten into the left side yet.

Post by **Lavoy** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:29 pm

Yes, you can change the pinion gear, the trouble you run into is setting preload on the bearings. You have to do your measurements from brake drum side to set the preload. You could probably set it with the old gear, and if you find a gear, measure the difference in the gear width and add/subtract from shim pack.
To change to 14 tooth pinion, you have to change to 55 tooth bull gear. No problem, but you will have a speed difference from the other track unless you change both sides. I have been thinking about pinion gears, and I believe we can make new late 440 pinion gears out of 1010 pinion gears, but have not gotten any deeper into it yet.
You always end up with a fiber against the pressure plate, so in the case of 8 & 8, you start with a steel.
I have discs on hand, $20/each. I am out of brake bands currently, should have an order in middle of next week.
Lavoy

Post by **Lavoy** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:58 am

I did some digging through the stash last night, found a new pinion gear if you need one.
Lavoy

lizrad999 · Post by **lizrad999** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:44 pm

PM me a price, and if I can afford it, I'll take it.
Thanks!

Also, got a question....
What is the function of the three balls behind the throw out bear assembly?

Post by **Lavoy** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:44 pm

Just answered your e-mail.
The balls are what push the throwout bearing outward as the "cam" rotates.
Lavoy

lizrad999 · Post by **lizrad999** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:54 pm

Lavoy,
Don't suppose there were a few other parts with that gear...
Since I'm replacing the friction discs, I figured I'd get into the left final as well.
Got the track and the cap that covers the pinion gear off, and noticed quite a bit of slack in the the bullgear and akxe shaft area. Haven't got the final off yet, so not sure who's the culprit, but I might be in the market for one or the other or both.
AT15157 Bullgear 57tooth
AT14978 Flanged Axle
Got any kicking around? If not, maybe somebody else might?
Thanks!!

Post by **Lavoy** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:58 am

I definitely do not have an axle, but they can be found, sometimes on a new gear, they are still okay.
Count your teeth again, you should have 56, not 57. Bull gears are worse to find then the pinion gears. I am going to try and make new pinion gears, bull gears we are out of luck I think, but working on an alternative, just not sure it will work.
I have one new bull gear left, but it is supposedly spoken for, although have not had heard from the customer for a while, so not sure it is.
Lavoy

JWB Contracting · Post by **JWB Contracting** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:12 pm

I have worked on many older deere crawlers, my dad has a collection of 3+ of each model from the BO Lindeman to 450's. We still work 350C loader machines equiped with 30" pads, angle dozer on the loader and 9550 backhoe. Today we ripped one down to fix a broken front crossmember.

Here is what we do up in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, eh..

- we use a glass bead blast cabinet to clean all parts, including the steel disks, pressure plates, clutch housing, etc.
- we will add an extra steel disk to account for wear on the original disks, plus it adds more clutch pressure
- we have stiffer springs made a local truck / trailer manufacturing shop
- when assembling, use fluid film to control rusting of the newly cleaned surfaces (any have any suggestions on this)
- leave bottom plugs out out of the clutch housing so water will drain if and when it gets in

I have seen some very rusted clutchs, the worst that can happen is if there cogs in the centres of the fibres break. We have wreck alot of machines and have lots of spares. We have even rebuilt clutches for a few select customers.

Good luch with your project

Ray III · Post by **Ray III** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:32 pm

There shouldn't be anything applied to the clutches for rust inhibiting, except maybe paint if you aren't going to run it for a while. If they are not completely dry they will not grip right. The only way to keep rust off is to use them. That's why they went to wet clutches.

Post by **Lavoy** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:09 am

If your boots are good, and everything else is done right, you should never get water in the clutch housing unless it is rain water. I never leave the plugs out, I have been in water over the hyd tank on more than one crawler and never had water in the clutch housings. I have always pulled the plugs after doing so just to double check, but then I put them back in. If I did not have the plugs in, I would have introduced water to the housings.
As Ray said, don't put any sort of product on the clutch discs unless you want to replace them again. For moving parts in there, I use anti-seize almost exclusively, it stays in place, does not run out or dry out.
Lavoy

Gil · Post by **Gil** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:45 am

If you do not put the plugs back in the final drive housings, you will be inviting mice to set up housing there. If you don't use the crawler over the winter, by spring you could have a fluffy mouse nest just ready to clog your brake and possibly clutch.

This concern also leads me to protect my engine clutch by putting hardware cloth screens over the inspection holes in the bellhousing. Thirty five horsepower is no match for one mouse.

lizrad999 · Post by **lizrad999** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:09 am

Lavoy, I've got the left final apart, and the bull gear and axle have considerable backlash where they meet.
Also, the pinion gear on that side has a chipped tooth as well.

Have you or anyone else got any 13 tooth pinion gears, and the 56 tooth bull gear and/or axles.

I know, it's a tall order but I won't know if I don't ask.
Thanks.

Post by **Lavoy** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:05 am

I have one bull gear, might have a pinion gear, if not, I think I can make you one.
Lavoy

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