Generator won't stay polarized.

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Ray III
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Generator won't stay polarized.

Post by Ray III » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:49 pm

Over the last few years the electrical system on my 420 has been completely gone through, and it runs perfectly, except for one thing. Every time I start it, the generator will not charge until I fetch my piece of wire and touch it between the starter post and armature post on the generator. Even then it sometimes does not want to charge. I have even seen it start charging at a low rate, then when I rev the engine the meter swings over to DISCHARGE. :evil:

It used to work well. The regulator was adjusted to charge at 6.75 volts, that was less than 2 years ago.

My dad said to put a condenser on the armature wire, and I've thought of putting a button in one of the unused holes in the top of the instrument panel that connects the A terminal at the regulator to the BAT terminal on the switch when pressed. But those would just be band-aid fixes.

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Lavoy
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Post by Lavoy » Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:46 am

Kind of sounds like a regulator problem, I have fought a couple of these in the past. Check all connections, make sure the regulator has a good ground.
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JD440ICD2006
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Post by JD440ICD2006 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:56 am

When it was completely gone through, was the generator completely rebuilt? There are $10 "kits" out there that only replace the brushes, shaft end bushing, and bearing. This is great as long as the coils are good, the armature is not worn out, and the output insulators are still good.
Also, there are several connections within the generator that can lose contact over time.
If the generator is up to snuff, it has to be either a bad ground or bad regulator.
One other thing to look for if you open up the generator. It is close quarters inside, if the insulation breaks down on a wire, it can be shorting itself out at times.
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Ray III
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Post by Ray III » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:04 pm

I put new brushes and brush springs in it. Bushings were good and commutator was not worn.

I'll check the regulator for a good ground and maybe look inside it again. I have to borrow a meter to check anything electrically though.

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:37 am

Hi,

There's a soft iron plate associated with each field coil in the generator. That's what you're polarizing (magnetically) when you go thru the procedure. They're supposed to provided enough magnetic field to produce an output voltage from the generator. That, in turn, closes the cut-out relay in the regulator, which then applies voltage to the field coils, boosting the mag field for high output.

If there is not enough magnetism in the plates you won't get enough voltage out of the generator to activate the coil in the cut-out relay.

So, you have to disconnect the power line from the generator and see if there's voltage at the output terminal with no load. If there is, then reattach the lead and measure again and see how much voltage you're losing. I'd reattach with an ammeter in the line as well (using a second meters) to see if I'm sinking current somewhere down the line.

It's also possible that the cut-out relay coil has shorted a winding or two, meaning that it will sink more current than normal and yet not produce enough mag field to close the contacts. This would be a faulty regulator, of course.

I had an issue just like this last summer. There was a piece of fuzz (looked like a weed seed of some sort) that had worked it's way into the regulator housing somehow. It was in between the cut-out relay contacts. That meant that the coil had to close with a tad more force than normal to make contact.

The symptom was that it would sometimes charge, sometimes not. When it would charge, it meant that I had to get the engine RPMs up high first. The faster the generator spins, the more voltage and current it will produce from the iron plates. Eventually, it was enough to force the cut-out relay contacts tighter and it would then 'make' and put current into the field coils. Plus, some vibration likely helped things along here.

I troubleshot it with the two-meter trick and also with a clip-cord between the battery and the field coil input terminal. That forced it to come on, but then the meters showed both a voltage and current change on the line to the cut-out, and I knew then that the issue was not in the generator, but in the regulator.

Which, was a PIA since one has to drain the coolant to remove the temp sensor from the head to then get the dash out far enough to get to the stupid regulator! :roll:

I'd have much rather worked on a bad generator! :lol:

Anyway, as I sit here reading your troubles, I wonder if you might not be fighting the same problem. You'd have a stronger mag field in the iron plates right after polarizing it. That might be enough to get it to work, but then the field will relax somewhat afterwards - so later on it doesn't work again.....

later!

Stan
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Ray III
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Post by Ray III » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:57 pm

Thanks for the info.

I hate going behind the panel too. I don't drain the coolant though, if the engine is cold and radiator cap is on I can get a plug in that hole before any of it gets away.

Ray III
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Post by Ray III » Thu May 19, 2011 8:23 pm

I think I finally got to the bottom of this mystery. I had my dad look at the thing (that usually gets things fixed) and he showed me that when you ground the field terminal on the generator, the regulator is bypassed and the gauge should show full charge, which it wasn't. But if you rapped on the back of the generator with a hammer handle it would start to charge. So the new brushes were not contacting for some reason.

The generator has a neat little cover that you can remove to access the brushes without dismantling half the crawler. I checked them out, one looked fine, but on the other I discovered that some creature had crawled in there and attached a sticky mess of webbing to the brush.

My guess is that made enough resistance to prevent the brush from moving in as it wore, which eventually made the generator so spotty that the battery would not stay charged and there was not enough activity going on to maintain polarization.

When I started it after putting the brushes back in it began to charge immediately. It remains to be seen whether it will stay that way but at least now I know what to monkey with in the future.

However, the gauge still does this thing where if the throttle is wide open the needle bounces back and forth, I don't know what's doing that...

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Pammark
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Post by Pammark » Fri May 20, 2011 6:35 am

Maybe the same creature (or his brother) crawled in your voltage regulator and gummed up the contacts. Open the top and look for corrosion. Maybe some fine sand paper to shine up the contacts.
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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Fri May 20, 2011 12:53 pm

debugging - low tech era. Cool.
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boler76
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polarizing generator

Post by boler76 » Sun May 22, 2011 2:48 pm

I too have a 6v new gen from this site that wont charge unless it is polarized, I have taken it apart and ensured the brushes were well seated and cleaned and tightened all electrical connections and now have a pushbutton across the cutout to give it a shot to start it generating???

Ray III
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Re: polarizing generator

Post by Ray III » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:13 am

boler76 wrote:I too have a 6v new gen from this site that wont charge unless it is polarized, I have taken it apart and ensured the brushes were well seated and cleaned and tightened all electrical connections and now have a pushbutton across the cutout to give it a shot to start it generating???
Like my dad showed me, first connect a ground to the field side to bypass the regulator and be sure the generator is the problem. Also the generator does not charge till I rev the engine and after a couple seconds it kicks in. At idle there is only maybe 1 amp of charge.

So far it has been working ok, now I have a sunken float in the carb to contend with.

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