Hyd fluid or motor oil????

General help and support for your Lindeman through 2010 John Deere crawler

Hyd oil or Motor oil for the Hyd system?

Poll ended at Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:17 pm

motor oil
1
7%
hyd fluid
14
93%
 
Total votes: 15

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bingles
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Hyd fluid or motor oil????

Post by bingles » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:17 pm

Hello I have a JD1010C Loader ripper crawler.

I am a Millwright by trade, mostly sawmill machine installs, rebuilding, and preventive Maintenance. At my plant they use 30W motor oil instead of hyd fluid. I was just wanting your guys thoughts on this.

Personally I am running Hyd fluid... But I am thinking about going to motor oil. Input would be great.

Thanks a bunch and drop them blades and move some dirt!!! :)
Brian Ingles "millwrightbrian"
Placerville, Ca

John Deere 1010C
Last edited by bingles on Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Willyr
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Post by Willyr » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:16 am

Motor oil acids will make the hydraulic seals swell under pressure. I have tried in the past on other items, it was not a pretty sight.

My New Holland tractor used what appeared to be 30 wt oil, yet it was hydraulic / rear end oil.

My Daddy always told me, there is a price for everything, even free has a price you pay for eventually.
former owner of a 1956 420c
All help is greatly appreciated.

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bingles
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Post by bingles » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:38 am

in the sawmill we used hyd fluid, in the cat shop they used 30wt motor oil . I rebuilt all the cylinders and valves on site and never saw a difference the seals when cyl was rebuilt.ofcourse all our seal were poly seals. I hve not yet rebuilt one of my new JD1010 cyl so I have no clue on what the seal types it has. There was some advantages why they did this, might have been for cold weather. I will have to ask tomorrow.

millwrightbrian
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rvbarkley
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Post by rvbarkley » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:56 am

We had older dock lifts where I worked that specified 20 wt. non detergent oil. Also think I've seen 20 wt. non det. specified in some of the older tractor manuals. (non detergent to avoid foaming). Problem now days is to find 20 wt. non detergent.....usually have to order.

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Post by KenP » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:05 am

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Last edited by KenP on Wed May 29, 2013 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:03 am

Hi,

The older machines, like my 'M' were spec'd to use non-detergent motor oil. One can use up to 30ND in those.

But, that's in the summer. In the cooler weather, one has to drain the 30 wt out and replace it with 20 or 10 wt. If you leave the 30 wt in and the temp drops below 40 deg F, then the lift becomes really slow to operate. As it gets colder, it won't work at all eventually.

Also, you need to run non-detergent motor oil. If it's got the soap in it, which is to clean out combustion byproducts in an engine, the stuff will foam during use and wind up preventing the lift from operating at rated load, or even stop it completely as the soap bubbles cause cavitation in the pump....

So, now the question is: where do you get 20 wt or 10 wt ND motor oil these days? You can get it, but you have to go to the oil dealer (the guys with the big tanks and trucks that sell only oil) and ask for it. They probably don't stock it, but they can order it from the oil companies that specialize in lubricants.

The end result is that you're going to pay 2-3x the cost of going to the John Deere dealer and buying HyGard. You can get hyd oil even cheaper in the farm stores, of course. Deere is always dear, you know! :P

So, in the end, tell me why you want to go back in time and use non detergent motor oil in the older iron?

Oh, and by the time even the 420 had come out, they had come up with specialized light weight hydraulic fluid that could handle the pressure whilst remaining thin and so one no longer needed to change the hyd oil with the seasons. Plus, hyd fluid has additives to prevent foaming and also to prevent oxidation and also to give a longer service life between changes.

So, tell me again *why* you want to go back in time and use an inferior oil you have to change twice each year?? ;)

Maybe if you happen to have some surplus drums of 10, 20 and 30 wt ND motor oil around and just want to use it for something before you haul it to the oil recycling center? ;)

As was already pointed out, lubrication engineering is an exact science that combines both chemical and mechanical engineering. Those boys figured all this out a long time ago, and they never stop trying to make lubricants even better. :)

later!

Stan
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Post by Lavoy » Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:08 am

Hyd oil is called hyd oil for a reason, it is different from engine oil, or it would not be called hyd oil. There is really no good reason to use engine oil in place of hyd oil. It is readily available, probably more so than non-detergent engine oil.
Lavoy

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Tigerhaze
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Post by Tigerhaze » Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:12 am

Sort of a side point, but my skid steer loader (Clark Bobcat 630) hydraulics for hydrostatic drive and lift were factory specified to use 10W30 motor oil and the maintenance stickers on the machine state that use of hydraulic oil will damage the system. I have used the 10W30 as specified with no problems, even in the colder weather.

Certainly this Bobcat was designed specifically to use motor oil, but my point is there is some hydraulic systems on construction equipment that operate on it. I would tend to agree that I wouldn't try it on an older Deere crawler not designed for it.

One question I had is whether I need to be extra cautious and purge lines on attachments for use with my auxillary hydraulics on my Bobcat becase it is a pretty good bet they were previously used with hydraulic fluid rather than motor oil, and not sure if the small volume of fluid will damage anything.
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bingles
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Post by bingles » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:45 am

I am waiting for a reply from our Cat Shop Supervisor as to why they use motor oil. I know there is no difference in the seals they run and they never change the oil in the winter, we never get -20 degree weather around here.

I doubt its due to cost as tghey never cut corners around here.

Brian
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Post by Lavoy » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:45 pm

Hydrostats are a different breed, and running hyd oil in them will lead to damage in fairly short order from what I am told. They run more of a "common systems" fluid, like Deere HyGard, IH HyTran, and such. These types of fluids are different than plain hydraulic oil, and I can see where they would interchange with engine oil. I spoke with a Conoco petroleum engineer years ago. They were experimenting with 15W-40 engine oil in all of the engine, hyd, and hystat reservoirs on combines, and having success with it. Not sure what happened to the program, I never saw anything more about it, but I know they tried it.
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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:51 pm

Hyd oil is called hyd oil for a reason, it is different from engine oil, or it would not be called hyd oil. There is really no good reason to use engine oil in place of hyd oil. It is readily available, probably more so than non-detergent engine oil.
Lavoy
Lavoy: What do you run in a 420c's hydraulic system? Thanks, Paul
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Post by Lavoy » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:39 pm

I run AW48 or AW62 hyd fluid. On occasion where we have a crawler that has hyd couplers on the back, and it may share a piece of equipment with a later model tractor, we use HyGard or equivalent to prevent cross contamination. You typically lose about 100PSI with HyGard, and the pumps seem to howl a little bit more, but I have never had damage occur.
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Jack-the-Ripper
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Post by Jack-the-Ripper » Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:49 pm

While we're on oils, I can get both "Tractor Fluid" and "Hydraulic Oil" in 5 gallon buckets at Costco.

Are they ever interchangable? It seems tractor fluid goes in transmissions and can also be used for hydraulics. Is either a replacement for Hygard?

In automobile's hydraulic brakes we're always cautioned (on the can) to use only hydraulic brake fluid and not mix in hydraulic oil (or DOT types). Is the brake fluid to suppress rust? I've been told its never good to mix oils, even engine oils. I confess to mixing some sometimes (engine oils, tractor with hydraulic) and have yet to have a problem (never mixed in hydraulic brake systems, however).
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bingles
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Post by bingles » Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:41 pm

My super says they run motor oil in all their equipment because it makes the machine run faster, he said its an old trick thats been in the logging industry for many many years. He said they have never had a problem and CAT and John Deere both say its fine to do.
I think I will stick with Hyd fluid in my Deere :)

Brian
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Caterpillar Oils

Post by JWB Contracting » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:05 pm

Our D6C uses the same oil for the engine, hydraulics and transmision. It is a cat grade 30 weight engine oil. This is what is requires, so this is what we use. Available at Walmart cheap, but they don't get it in big quanitities, so i buy some everytime i go.

Best to stick with what is required by each type of equipment. With that said, the only equipment we buy speciality oil is our D6C and our 2 cycle detroit engines. Other than that everything gets the same 10W30, doesn't matter if it comes from Walmart or a bulk dealer.

We have never had a engine or component fail because of using cheaper product, but we are using the correct product.
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