I believe im stuck inbetween reverser gears?

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kluegcollector
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I believe im stuck inbetween reverser gears?

Post by kluegcollector » Wed May 07, 2014 12:50 pm

I have a 1960 440 IC and I bought it to tear down a block home on our property. It was working great!!! one of my clutches was weak, but working amazing. It was so much fun!

I was backing up the slope getting ready to scoop under some more rubble when all of a sudden it acted like it was stuck in gear. Wouldnt go forward or back. Even in neutral, when the clutch was released it would bogg down under a load. Also the right foot pedal is no longer connected to the clutch. Is this a big deal. It became unlinked to the clutch about 10minutes before all this happend

We checked the shifter forks and transmission gears, they were all lined up properly. The access panel for the reverser linkage is behind the supports for high lift loader. When I bought the crawler I was told that the reverser was not hooked up. I did not know why, or even if it was a big deal. I had never owned one before. The lever to engage the reverser is not hooked up behind the dash. And when looking at the linkage shaft it looks to be pulled out. We cant seem to get it back in either. I am not sure if the crawler is ingaged in some way because it is on a slope. We cant get it up the hill with 2 of our other tractors pulling it either.

Where do we begin? and we have diagrams of the crawler to go off.

Please help

Justin

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Wed May 07, 2014 1:30 pm

Hi,

Well, the right foot pedal is the master brake. It pulls both brake bands tight around the steering clutch drums. If something fell apart with that, then it seems as you have both brakes applied. That would lead to bogging the engine when you let out the master clutch, all right. And, would also explain why you now need a D6 to move it.

The reverser is a differential style, between the master clutch and the input of the transmission. If it lost the reverse clutch - the most common failure - or the spyder gears - the second most common failure - then putting it in forward and disconnecting the linkage is a common fix. You can still reverse the machine with the gearbox.

But, unless the innards of the reverser came all apart and jammed the gearbox input shaft, you would not bog the engine with the master clutch. And, but putting the gearbox in neutral, you could still roll it on the tracks.

The fact you mention the right pedal and the fact it is not moving in neutral under tow tells me you have locked brakes.

Stan
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Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

kluegcollector
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Post by kluegcollector » Wed May 07, 2014 6:42 pm

When applying the master brake, the linkages to both brakes move. I crawled under it as the pedal was being pressed. The pedals are still independent of each other. Does the couch pedal act in some other function except for applying brakes? Is that spring internally releasing the breaks or to just push the brake pedal back simultaneously with the clutch?

kluegcollector
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Post by kluegcollector » Wed May 07, 2014 6:52 pm

The crawler will roll with the clutch in and won't bogg down. With the clutch out it boggs down and won't roll. So if the brakes are hooked to the master break pedal and are unapplied the why does it still bog down even if in neutral?

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Wed May 07, 2014 7:13 pm

Hi,

Well, you said the right pedal came undone, and that is the master brake pedal.

Now it does not sound like the brakes, as did in the first post. Why it rolls with the engine clutch pedal depressed yet won't power itself is a mystery. The part about the transmission in neutral yet the gearbox seems OK does have me thinking the fault is with the reverser as well....

The only gears inside the reverser are the spyder gears in the baby differential that is at the center of the unit. I would expect it to be stuck either way if they fell apart and jammed it.

The thing uses two clutch packs, one for forward and one for reverse. When they go, you lose drive in one (sometimes both) direction. But it is not locked up such it will bog the engine when you let out the main clutch.

The reverser has no neutral, but it is possible to get the thing in 'no man's land' between forward and reverse. This might get it in a state where it is trying to go forward and reverse at the same time, since the spring loading on the two clutch packs will be way off. Now, that would bog the engine.

When these machines were new, there was a lengthy warning label on them stating to never, ever try to put the thing in between forward and reverse or else.

What to suggest to do about that with no linkage present, I do not know. My machine is a 420, and so has this long lever on the right side of the dash. It takes a healthy pull to shift it (20 pounds of force at the lever end) and I cannot think of a way to move the actuator shaft that sticks out of the case with no lever.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Wed May 07, 2014 7:17 pm

Hi,

And, the bad news is, the only way to work on a reverser is to yank it out. Everything in front of if has to come out first.....

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

kluegcollector
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Post by kluegcollector » Sat May 10, 2014 7:42 am

Thanks for the reply. I will check the reverser out as soon as I can. I will be sure to post what I find out what went wrong.

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Post by Lavoy » Sat May 10, 2014 8:03 am

Maybe I am missing something, but something is fishy here. Rolling should have nothing to do with the clutch if the trans is in neutral. If the trans is in gear and will roll with the clutch in, then there is connection between the trans and clutch, and everything in between is connected and rolling. If all of the above will turn when the crawler is rolling, it will turn with the engine running and the clutch out.
You said it rolls with the clutch in, but yet you say you can't move it with two other tractors? I think you need to clarify exactly what is happening and I think we can figure out what is wrong.
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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Sun May 11, 2014 8:37 am

Hi,

Re-reading the first post, it was backing up hill and stopped and bogged the engine. Letting the clutch out with the trans in Neutral still results in engine bogging.

Then, it is mentioned that the right pedal came loose from the 'clutch' by which I can only think it must be the brake pedal off the shaft.

The reverser linkage is off, so it must be in Forward, and he was using Reverse in the gearbox.

He could not tow it uphill, but maybe that is just weight of the crawler loader, gravity, and not enough grip from four tractor tires. He does not say it won't roll at all.....

I came away thinking the brake pedal came loose and jammed the brakes on, but missed the engine bogging with the trans in neutral. Of course, it would require a hell of a pull to yank a crawler loader uphill with the brakes locked up..... ;)

The second post says it will roll with the clutch in. So the brakes must be off. And, nothing jammed up in the driveline. So, that is odd. I can't think of what might have come apart to jam things under engine power but not when rolling.

Only thing I can think of is the reverser, sans linkage, slipped out of Forward and into the No Man's Land between. I have never tried doing anything with one in that mode. Does it try to go two ways at once and jam up?

There are warnings to never put the reverser in between, and I never have. But, I can see one doing that if the clutch packs are light on the adjustment and there is no lever or linkage to hold the selector rod in place.

Anyway, if it does try to fight itself, I can see where it would not want to move with the main clutch engaged, yet would move with it disengaged.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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ddaxe
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Re: I believe im stuck inbetween reverser gears?

Post by ddaxe » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:39 am

My 440 has suffered the same fate.. I pulled the barrel bung cap off for a peak.. and there's a shift fork in there.. I've tried to pry it either direction .. but it won't budge.. there is an inspection cover there as well.. but I haven't taken it off yet. I went to check my parts 440.. and it doesn't have an inspection plate.. or a shift rod coming out of the back lower left side like the other one.. so, is one a reverser box.. and the other a straight through box without a reverser..?? or is it a different style reverser..??
Tks in advance for any insight...
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Re: I believe im stuck inbetween reverser gears?

Post by dtoots1 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:02 am

It seems to me that when i was working on my 440ic--reverser, trying to adjust the reverse adjuster, it seems you have to have the lever kinda in neutral to adjust....while doing so i forgot to move lever back to engage and attempted to test and move machine to do so.....my machine then bogged down, until i remembered to move the lever, so YES that appears to be exactly the problem with yours.

also, have you attempted to back off the brakes and then try to move it?

i don't use my reverser cause it wants to pop out, i simply leave in forward and use reverse in tranny.....cant seem to move the adjuster enough to get adjusted properly, like is end of adjustment????

another point to mention on the reverser....i have a donor reverser that i was testing by hand and needed to shift the rod back with nothing attached so a bit unhandy, but i was able to shift it with a very lot of pressure, once it gets to the correct point it snaps in position, seems to me i used a pipe clamp to hold and maintain pressure to the snap point

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: I believe im stuck inbetween reverser gears?

Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:35 am

Hi,

Stuck in between? Won't stay in? I bet the ears on the clutch plates are bent. And, that comes from not being completely stopped when the lever is moved. The major bug-a-boo with differential reversers.

One the parts 440, if you don't see the bung plugs or the shifter cover, it is the center frame you are seeing. Which, of course, means no reverser. They were options, and costly ones at that.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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ddaxe
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Re: I believe im stuck inbetween reverser gears?

Post by ddaxe » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:52 am

Tks for the reply Stan... I've been reading as much as I can to learn what these machines are about before I jump into a full on resto... I will probably use the non reverser box, now that I know what it is as it will be just one less thing to go wrong with it that will need very little attention during the built... with that said.. I just missed out on another parts machine for a very decent price with a fully rebuilt engine.. and a slew of new parts... dang!!
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Re: I believe im stuck inbetween reverser gears?

Post by Lavoy » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:02 am

Reversers as a general rule don't go wrong, operators break them. If the reverser was stuck in both directions, the crawler would not roll as the rear clutch pack is splined to the case and as such would lock up the input shaft if the front pack was also engaged. What you are describing is lots of times the input shaft bearing. Either way you are pulling the reverser, but I would not just eliminate it.
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ddaxe
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Re: I believe im stuck inbetween reverser gears?

Post by ddaxe » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:06 am

No eh... it's been disconnected at some point.. as the lever isn't there anymore.. it doesn't look like that complicated a mechanism that activates it.. and could possibly be made from another lever.. ?? I have a mill & lathe.. so it' makes things a bit easier than farming out that type of work ...
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