440 ICD running in opposite direction?

lastchancegarage · Post by **lastchancegarage** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:31 am

Funny thing happened this past weekend with my 440 ICD. My son was on the dozer (for the first time, he's 14) and was helping me pull a monster stump out of the hole while I rolled it with the backhoe. I guess he put a little too much load on the crawler because it started puffing smoke out the air cleaner!

I yelled at him to shut it down and he dumped the clutch which stalled it. It started fine after that and I explained about not putting so much of a load on it again. I've heard that the two strokes can run backwards if loaded to the stalling point when they're hot. My guess is it had just started the reverse direction when he dumped the clutch. I'm just glad he didn't throw the clutch out so it could pick up speed in that direction. Anyone ever had something like this happen to them? Will the engine run on crankcase oil if allowed to spool up in reverse? Being on the backhoe, I couldn't hear what the 440's engine sounded like. From the look on my son's face, it couldn't be good. Judging from the snapping motion of his head looking at the gages and the smoke coming out the intake cover, he knew something wasn't right. Could anything have been damaged by this? Like I said, it started up fine after that. Fun is!

Scott

tomcat4144 · Post by **tomcat4144** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:55 am

my dad used to drive pulp truck, in the 70`s he was driving a mack pulling a too big load out of the woods and lugged it down so far it bucked and took off running in the opposite direction. he just shut it down and restarted it and continued on his way. guess i dont know what kind of damage to the engine this could do but think it wouldnt be good if left running. (oil pump running in reverse?) i have heard of others that have had the same thing happen, never heard of any damage, but all have done the same thing, shut it off and restart.
i`ll have to keep an eye on the replys here and maybe learn something new too!

Little John · Post by **Little John** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:53 pm

Another reason to like this site. I had, 50 yrs ago, a 2 cycle Jawa motor bike engine that would do the same thing! No problem with oil pump since it was gas, and oil was 'included' in the fuel. It lubricated in either direction. The change in direction however, took a toll on the flywheel key (way). It was a spark/timing problem. (Timing, I'd think would be critical on a 2 cycle oil burner)
The real way to get the answer to the question of reverse rotation may very well be to question the 'marine' folks, since many, 'Gray Marine' engines were used in twin prop applications. I'm sure the Navy would have had them not both rotating in the same direction. I've only been around a boat with a 6-71 single engine...a real screamer though. Bye

Post by **Lavoy** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:26 pm

I believe that you could get a Detroit in either rotation for the reasons stated, but I am not sure they will run backwards. A Detroit can not run without a blower, and I don't think the blower will produce boost with the engine rotating backwards. That is not to say they won't, but I am trying to figure out how they get air flow to do so. Maybe the 2-53's operate a little differently than the larger series engines.
Lavoy

digitup · Post by **digitup** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:39 pm

All 53 -72-and 91 series Detroits will run backwords but runing backwords they also run dry in oil sump department.exhaust out the intake is the big-first indicator Digitup.

Post by **Lavoy** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:10 am

I know I have always heard that, but what I still wonder, is how are they getting air with the blower turning backwards?
Lavoy

lastchancegarage · Post by **lastchancegarage** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:19 am

I'm with you Lavoy, I couldn't figure how such a sealed air system could run in reverse. Unless somehow the sudden negative pressure created by the blower going in the opposite direction sucked air/oil from the crankcase by way of the pistons at the bottom of their travel in the cylinders. Whatever it was, the smoke puffing out of the inlet cap was rythmic and under pressure. The engine is an unknown to me as far as when/if it was rebuilt. If the rings are worn enough, I guess that would explain some blowby of oil to feed the cylinders shortterm. The other thing was the engine was hot when this happened. I'd been grading with it for about an hour when I decided to tackle the stump removal. I'm just glad that by luck of my son's inexperience, he dumped the clutch to shut it down immediately. I ran it last night just to move a little dirt into the hole and it ran fine as always so I'm not too worried about the engine. Hopefully this was one of those experiences where the "natural" consequences don't punish you significantly. My son sure knows now not to load down an engine to that point. We both learned something that day.

Post by **Lavoy** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:28 am

That's it, you just hit it. When the engine runs backwards, the blower is drawing air in through the exhaust, through the exhaust valves, through the cylinder, and out through the intake ports in the sleeves. In the back of my mind, I know there was a way to do it, but could not come up with it. Man this CRS sucks!!!!!!!!!
In addition to no oil pressure, you are also drawing in unfiltered air not to mention all the carbon and crap in the exhaust system.
Lavoy

lastchancegarage · Post by **lastchancegarage** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:50 am

Another good reason to have that rain flapper on the exhaust stack..."Automatic Reverse Running Air Shutoff valve!

Of course, when the deere people hear that the price will jump from $8 to about $100.

p.s. ...ok, I'll bite...what's CRS? you got me there.

Post by **Lavoy** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:46 pm

Can't Remember Sh__!

digitup · Post by **digitup** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:50 pm

They wont run long in reverse though I was pulling the float tractor out of a hole one time and I noticed the exhaust get sucked back in [thers your sign] and could not belive my eyes 13 gears in reverse and 3 in forward my older brother said as they try to draw fuel through the return line they empty the rack line of fuel The fuel pump is a gear pump and it emptys out fast When the scavenger pump [roots pump] turns over backwards it is damnd near as efective backwards . I think that the motor can easy bump over backwords at an idle.If you hit the fuel shut off and push it back in just at the right time it will do this all on its own Digitup.

tomcat4144 · Post by **tomcat4144** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:40 am

That CRS is a communicable disease! worse than the common cold. i`ll make a list at home and then forget to bring the list!

digitup · Post by **digitup** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:22 pm

As time goes on we can blame it on old age .I find that is a good excuse .Digitup

shinnery · Post by **shinnery** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:28 am

I think a C-Nile Virus attacted me from my computer by way of my mouse.

lastchancegarage · Post by **lastchancegarage** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:32 am

I'm just glad the exhaust had a rain flapper on it. I'm sure for the few seconds it went backwards it was starving for air. As I joked with Lavoy, the "Automatic Reverse Running Air Shutoff" valve worked as advertised.

The only other threat I can think of is the possible suction of engine oil by the rings when the piston is at the bottom of its stroke.

If that was to happen, then you'd not only have a fuel source but air as well (through crankcase venting).

I'm sure the engine would have to be pretty worn for that to happen. Anyway, interesting phenomena I hope I won't be seeing again too soon.

Thanks for the feedback and info guys.
Scott

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