Alternator question on 410 TLB

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amos
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Alternator question on 410 TLB

Post by amos » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:28 am

Down to last fix on my 410-D TLB. Idiot light for charging system won't go out.Battery is at 12.1 volts at the terminals. At the alternator the voltage regulator is mounted on the back of it. There are 3 wires for the regulator plus a 2 wire harness. Looking at the back and looking forward the left red wire reads 13.8V. there is a terminal plug under the regulator and didn't get a reading on that. The right black wire reads zero volts(think that is the ground). Then there is a 2 wire wiring harness that reads no volts on either terminal. With the red wire reading 13.6 I'm pretty sure the alternator is functioning and no readings anywhere else the regulator is shot. Thoughts?
Amos
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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Alternator question on 410 TLB

Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:19 am

Hi,

I can't really follow wires in my head too well, so I will give you the basics. The regulator passes power from the battery to the alternator field coils (which is usually on the rotator on an alternator). There is no magnetic field present on an alternator without field power. The spinning mag field then produces power in the armature coils (the stator) which is in three phases. That is, AC current. Which then passes thru diode pairs on each phase and then out to the battery. The function of the regulator is to bring the voltage output to 13.8 volts nominal, and hold it there by increasing and decreasing the field coil power as necessary.

To have 13.6v on any part while the battery is at 12v means there has to be some power passing from the battery to the field coils via the regulator.

After that, there may be a cutout transistor inside the regulator which is not allowing the output to connect to the battery. This is what I don't really know. Earlier alternator designs used a cutout transistor, or even a relay, because generator designs used cutouts. Alternators don't actually need them because the diodes are one-way and so would not pass power backwards. Generators don't have diodes and so needed that cutout.

Another thing is some earlier alternators had a small generator inside which would produce just enough field current so that they did not need a battery attached to operate. This, so they act like an older generator to 'bootstrap' themselves. It may be yours is like this and the regulator is shot but you are seeing bootstrap voltage with nowhere to go.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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amos
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Re: Alternator question on 410 TLB

Post by amos » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:43 am

Hi Stan,
Thanks for your input. More I think on it and with no voltage read at the 2 wire harness(feed for idiot light) and with 13+ volts from alternator to regulator the more I'm leaning toward regulator being OOC. That little regulator is "ONLY" $86.00 at my JD construction dealer.Argh.....
Hate to pay that but prefer to keep machine as close to factory original as possible on parts like this.Have 2 new 1 wire alternators laying around and could use one of those with some wiring mods but prefer not to. Have to replace some wires too:lots of duct tape used on bare wires(not kidding) and many bare corroded wires.
If I was going to keep it I would simply keep it plugged into a trickle charger but I plan to offer it for sale and don't want to leave a potential buyer with a problem.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Alternator question on 410 TLB

Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:03 pm

Hi,

Yes, I think you are correct: the magic smoke leaked out of the regulator.

A one-wire alternator is pretty easy fix, though. After you get it mounted (the hard part), you simply run one wire to the battery (the easy part). Everything else electrical is handled internally. So, all you need do is cap off the ends of all the other wires.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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amos
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Re: Alternator question on 410 TLB

Post by amos » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:12 pm

Well,it wasn't the $86.00 John Deere voltage regulator. Had less voltage output with new regulator than I did with old regulator. Major bummer.Removed alternator and had it tested and it failed.Ordered new alternator(with regulator installed:have spare now) from Mr.E-Bay($98.00 Grrrrrrrr) and it will be here next week.
Removed pulley and fan from old alternator and then I could see the windings about packed full of dirt:grounded out maybe?
Hopefully new alternator will do the trick.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Alternator question on 410 TLB

Post by Stan Disbrow » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:00 am

Hi,

Might be you only have one of the three phases still working. You got 13 volts out of the alternator, not the battery. But, maybe no current to speak of. Usually it is failed diodes when you see one with some voltage production with low current. The modern method of repair is to swap out the unit. I wonder if the old one has a core value these days?

Anyway, packed with dirt means loss of cooling and something overheats. Diodes or windings. Doesn't matter now. You troubleshot it in the best order. At least you are only out $86 and not the $300 I lost rebuliding a 420 starter, new armature, brushes and brush plate and bendix, to then find out one field coil was also shot. Can't source field coils for them these days, only another whole starter.

So, now I have more spare parts, too. So, not really lost money. Just extra parts I didn't really need to buy.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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amos
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Re: Alternator question on 410 TLB

Post by amos » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:54 am

Morning Stan,
When the new one comes in and I verify it is correct and working I'll break down the old one and see what is going on.You sound right on overheat and diodes going bad: I have minimal history on the machine since seller was not at all honest about recent use and condition(bought this one on internet auction and only saving grace was it went cheap at $5100.00) I'm having to go back to basics and troubleshoot blind.
But most expensive "repair" to date was the heavy service cycle:that runs about $600.00 on a typical backhoe. Other than that it has been hose replacements,fix leak on fuel tank,linkage repairs,and other nickle and dime repairs that cost little but took a lot of time.
Loader bucket is a good example. rear lower edge peeled back in a few spots so I fabbed repair sections from 3 x 3 x 1/4 angle with a strip of 3 x 1/4 flat on one side then cut off peeled bucket material and welded on the repair sections. Already had the angle and flat from other projects and other than 5# of rod it was just time.
Then paint outside of bucket to rust proof: already had the paint so it was a couple of 5" tampon rollers and a 2" chip brush. About 3 bucks(not worth using $5.00 of solvent to clean them).
While waiting for new alternator also ordered kits for tilt cylinders on loader bucket. One has a drip that is probably going to get worse and the other will be right behind it. JD construction kit is $170.00 per and Mr. E-bay is about half. But I've had better luck with OEM versus aftermarket on cylinder kits so will spend the extra money for OEM.Lot of work to re-pack a cylinder and for the extra few dollars it usually works out better for me.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

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Re: Alternator question on 410 TLB

Post by Ray III » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:20 am

Stan Disbrow wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:00 am
At least you are only out $86 and not the $300 I lost rebuliding a 420 starter, new armature, brushes and brush plate and bendix, to then find out one field coil was also shot. Can't source field coils for them these days, only another whole starter.
Those starters have field coils? I thought they might be permanent magnet starters. What is the purpose of the field coil in a starter, just so there is no magnet to break?

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Re: Alternator question on 410 TLB

Post by Stan Disbrow » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:18 am

Hi,

Electromagnet. Which has far more mag field power than a permanent magnet.

Generators have mild steel plates which are made into permanent magnets during the polarization process. This, so they can be self-energizing to produce some small output to then pull in the cutout relay and energize their field coils for higher output.

Perhaps you were thinking of the generator permanent magnets.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Re: Alternator question on 410 TLB

Post by shinnery » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:05 pm

Cast perminant magnets for starters are only a recent occurance, Last twenty years or so.
No trees were hurt in the creation of this message.
But, many electrons were terribly bothered.

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Alternator question on 410 TLB

Post by Stan Disbrow » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:17 am

Hi,

Yes, high power perm mags came about in the 1980s for computer hard drives. Awfully expensive for about 20 years, but like all such things became cheaper over time. But, we were talking much older iron here, so they used coils. ;)

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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amos
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Re: Alternator question on 410 TLB

Post by amos » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:25 pm

Well the new alternator with new regulator from Mr. E-bay worked like a champ.13.6V at the battery when running at a high idle.Had to fix some bad wires but other than that seems good to go now.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Alternator question on 410 TLB

Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:24 am

Hi,

We Have The Power! (to the tune of the song of the same name) :)

Now you can fix the old one at your leisure. Put on that new regulator. Test it first, of course, then put it on eBay. With a rebuild and a new reg, with a good description, you can probably double your money. ;)

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

User avatar
amos
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Re: Alternator question on 410 TLB

Post by amos » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:01 am

Hi Stan,
I'll put it on my to do shelf :) Ram was at dealer getting serviced yesterday so I couldn't pick up the cylinder kits so i was fixing more drips.Main hydraulic pressure regulator had a good drip on bottom. Turned out to be 2 loose hose connections and a loose hydraulic fitting. Been finding these types of stupid/cheap to fix issues all over this machine.
Back on the road later today to north and east of Kansas City MO: won another Yanmar 3000 at auction. Coming from a tractor dealer and will see how honest he was.Supposed to be in good mechanical condition.$2050.00 with commission and about $500.00 in fuel,snacks,and 1 hotel night to go get it. 1140 mile round trip.
I sold same model last year for $3800.00 so might make some coin if I sell it. But I do enjoy these tractors and have a use for it too:great little truck garden tractor,can run up to a 5' mower,sprayer,trailer spotter,etc.
Amos the Trucker:today and tomorrow :D
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

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