You Would Think this was Simple...

Discuss non-crawler related issues here (keep it sane, please)
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CuttingEdge
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You Would Think this was Simple...

Post by CuttingEdge » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:53 am

A long story short, I am trying to do cogeneration at my house. This means I must hook up an engine to a PTO generator. I have an engine with a hand clutch and multiple belt pulley to do this, but what side of the PTO generator do I mount the engine?

I know as viewed from the front the engine turns clock wise. I would assume that means the PTO generator would want to turn clockwise as well. So it seems the engine pulley would want to be on the left side of the pto input shaft pulley as viewed from the front?

If it was geared together, the input shaft would turn backwards from the way I want, but a pulley and belt system would allow the two shafts to turn in the same rotation...right?
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

Jim B
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Re: You Would Think this was Simple...

Post by Jim B » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:26 am

Pulleys belted together as you describe will both turn the same direction.

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CuttingEdge
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Re: You Would Think this was Simple...

Post by CuttingEdge » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:02 am

Jim B wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:26 am
Pulleys belted together as you describe will both turn the same direction.
Hey thanks for the quick reply: I must have lacked coffee there for a moment! (LOL)

Another question though...

I am using a 275 gallon oil tank to store the diesel fuel for the engine. It has only limited ports (3) 2 inch ports, and then of course the half inch port at the bottom of the tank. Fill, whistle and fuel gauge will take up the big ports on top, and the fuel supply to the engine will take up the bottom most port...so where do I plumb the engines fuel return? Heating appliances do not have return fuel lines like engines do.

My first thought was to make another port in the oil drum, but I think it would be easier to route the injector lubricating fuel back to the filter housing.

Do you think I would have problems with that arrangement?
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

Jim B
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Re: You Would Think this was Simple...

Post by Jim B » Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:09 pm

Some oil burning heating systems do have excess fuel return lines, just not as common. You need one port for the fill pipe and the second will handle the vent, whistle and gauge using a combination unit like this https://www.homedepot.com/p/Beckett-Kin ... 312890-_-N. (That is not a plug for Home Depot, is was just an easy link to grab, as you can get them at most hardware stores and oil suppliers.) That is the combination unit used on most every home heating oil tank as well as some diesel tanks. The whistle sound carries up the vent pipe so the delivery driver can hear it. That leaves the third plug in the top to set up with the return line. You could pull supply from there as well if you don't want to draw off the bottom. You may need to modify pipe fittings to get what you want for your return. Whatever you do for tying into that third opening, it needs to be air tight for the whistle to work. No whistle it could get over filled, and they can refuse to fill it.
Last edited by Jim B on Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: You Would Think this was Simple...

Post by CuttingEdge » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:27 pm

Hey thanks as that would work well...

My understanding on the forums is, mentioning a particular product in a REPLY is not a big deal because a person is just helping another by mentioning a product as a way to deal with their problem. It is when a FIRST thread starter question has a particular product that the waters get muddied because that is how Spammer's use forums to promote their products.

For instance, if I start a new topic and say, "My LL Bean boots are the best"; that is product promotion, and not okay to do, but if someone says their back hurts from walking on concrete all day in the shop, and I mention some LL Bean boots that are comfortable; I am just saying what works for me. That is a huge difference.

On here, Lavoy has time and money tied up in this forum, so we have to be careful we do not promote products that he sells...
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: You Would Think this was Simple...

Post by CuttingEdge » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:36 pm

On a different note, I took a long hard look at a couple of engine choices today.

I got a nice 6 cylinder Hercules's Engine (White) that is all rebuilt, and sitting on an engine stand with hand clutch and pulley ready to go into a sawmill I got. That is never going to saw wood again, so I figured I would use that.

But...

Then I got looking at a Carrier Reefer Engine I have kicking around. The motor is good, but the reefer unit is shot, and it does not look like it would be that hard to get to fire back up. I do not know...more work and money for sure, but in some ways it is the better option. I only need 27 hp and the reefer engine has about 30 HP.

The Hercules's...well it lives up to its name, I think it is in the 130 HP range. I really do not need to be feeding fuel for 100 hp I really do not need.

I am thinking now the Carrier Reefer Engine might be a nice project engine for this project cogeneration plant (for my house).

Making some assumptions, like an engine giving off 75% heat to mechanical energy, I would need to burn about 6 gallons of diesel fuel to have the required BTU's for my radiant floor heating system. (131,000 btus per gallon of #2 diesel, times 6 gallons at 75% conversion would be 600,000 btu's). That would be enough to heat my home per day, and at 83 amps/20 KW; power anything I need in my home.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: You Would Think this was Simple...

Post by CuttingEdge » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:03 am

Well l I guess I am going to go with the Reefer Engine since I went up to the shop this morning, dragged it down to my house, and then positioned it into the generator room.

That was kind of a nightmare because I had to slide it up an inclined ramp/walkway about 25 feet and I did not have my favorite laborer here...Katie.

But by using pipes, blocking, and pry bars, I was able to work it slowly up the ramp by rolling it along the pipes, and into position by myself. A refer unit would not seem to be too big bolted to the front of a tractor trailer...trailer, but working the unit up a ramp makes a person realize it is bigger and heavier than they first think. I would move it six inches, and it would roll back just as many. Finally I got it into position though.

The next step is to get the compressor off the back of it, and then start getting the wiring figured out, get the engine unseized, and finally fired back up. Once it is up and running, then I will hook up the generator too it, and then finally plumb the coolant lines into the boiler that is in position beside it now.

Once that is done, I will get the boiler so it is working with a new chimney, wiring, and get it plumbed, then the final step will be to plumb that line into the radiant floor heat of the house.

It is kind of a long term project.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

yukonjack
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Re: You Would Think this was Simple...

Post by yukonjack » Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:15 pm

Jim B wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:09 pm
...That leaves the third plug in the top to set up with the return line. You could pull supply from there as well if you don't want to draw off the bottom. You may need to modify pipe fittings to get what you want for your return. Whatever you do for tying into that third opening, it needs to be air tight for the whistle to work...
Not to make this too complicated...But if you want to pull the supply off the top of the tank, they make a "double tapped bushing", which allows you to attach the supply line to the top of the tank, and then put a drop tube down from the bottom of the bushing inside the tank:
https://www.beckettcorp.com/product/dou ... -bushings/
If you want to use one two inch bung for both supply and return, they also make three- and four-tap duplex style bushings:
https://www.beckettcorp.com/product/dup ... -bushings/
These fittings are used all the time by oil burner and tank installers and are more commonly available than you might think.

If your boiler is also oil fired and pulling out of the same tank, you can connect the generator supply line to the 1/2" bottom bung and the return line to one side of the tank top mounted duplex fitting, and connect the supply to your boiler through the other side of the duplex fitting using a shorter than normal drop tube...that way you can set it up so the boiler would run out of fuel first, and leave a couple of hours worth of fuel in reserve for the generator.

Interesting project; keep us posted! yukonjack

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Re: You Would Think this was Simple...

Post by CuttingEdge » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:56 am

No, the boiler is a combination wood and coal boiler. (See photo)

I had it all hooked up once, but then Katie (my wife in the picture) decided that she wanted that room to be a mudroom for the kids instead, so I took the boiler out and tried to sell it. It never sold, so then I figured I minds well put it out in our old lambing barn.

That building is pretty big, insulated, and I use it as a shop, so that would be nice to keep heated. Then by plumbing it to the radiant floor heat in my house about 100 feet away, I can heat my house with it.

So that was my first plan...

Image
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: You Would Think this was Simple...

Post by CuttingEdge » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:10 am

Then a month or so ago, we lost power at our house; something that happens quite often. This time it was out for 18 hours. Well I have a PTO generator for that issue, 83 amps/20 KW...

But the thing was, I noticed a lot of heat was being generated. The tractor was running at 180 degrees, the generator was warm, everything was fine, but what a waste of all that heat. The other issue was, my tractor is just sitting there running, putting hours on it. The generator really needs its own engine.

Well I have a few engines kicking around

But then what would happen if I plumbed the coolant water into my radiant floor heating system? 75% of an engines energy is produced as heat, so in another reply earlier, I showed the math on that.

I did a little checking and it is not just possible, it is something called "Cogeneration", because a person is making electricity and using the heat from the engine to heat their home.

It is not really cost effective for a person to produce their own electricity, but if a person produces their own electricity, as well as heats their home, then the numbers get better. But a person will never do that buying a generator set. I realized I had all the components to set all this up myself: diesel engine, pto generator, fuel tank. I just got to put it all together.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: You Would Think this was Simple...

Post by CuttingEdge » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:22 am

Now the boiler can be separate, and the generator set can be separate, but then I thought, 'Why not tie them together?"

The reason for that is simple, no matter what is running...it will circulate warm water through the boiler or engine, keeping everything warm.

Even if my boiler burns out because it does not have coal or firewood in it, and my generator is not running, my propane boiler would then sense the water in my radiant floor heating system is not warm enough, and fire up. That will heat the water up and circulate it through my coal/firewood boiler, as well as my engine, Thus they will always be warm.

The biggest benefit is, my generator would always start because it is always between 100-150 degrees.

All this sounds complicated, but it is really not. It is no different than a spit-swapper on a bulldozer or skidder.

As for heating my house, my radiant flooring heating system does not care what is making the hot water...propane boiler, engine with genset, or the firewood/coal boiler...it does not care, just as long as the water is between 100-150 degrees.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: You Would Think this was Simple...

Post by CuttingEdge » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:34 am

So that is the overall plan, now back to the technical issues...

Anyone know the best way to unseize a diesel engine that has been sitting in storage a long time?

It was under cover inside a building so the diesel engine is in really good shape. It is also entirely intact although the reefer unit was dismantled. This tells me it was kept because the engine was sound, but the chiller was broken...

Yesterday I was able to strip everything back to the engine. This meant unbolting all the chiller wiring and crap, and then pulling the chiller off the flywheel. I was hoping the reefer unit was seized and keeping the engine from free turning, but that is not the case, it is stuck.

My plan was to use Marvel Mystery Oil and dump it down each cylinder, but maybe some of you have done this more than me, and know a better way?
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

yukonjack
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Re: You Would Think this was Simple...

Post by yukonjack » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:33 am

CuttingEdge wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:34 am

Anyone know the best way to unseize a diesel engine that has been sitting in storage a long time?

My plan was to use Marvel Mystery Oil and dump it down each cylinder, but maybe some of you have done this more than me, and know a better way?
Some guys swear by a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF; I've seen that blend work wonders on a big 6 cyl gasoline Waukesha in a Walter truck that was caught once.

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Re: You Would Think this was Simple...

Post by CuttingEdge » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:53 pm

Well I am making significant headway now, the tearing apart is done, and the rebuild starts...

I did not need any oil to get the engine unseized, in fact I would not even call it "seized" but maybe "stuck". I threaded in some bolts on the flywheel, put a short bar between the bolts like a spanner wrench, and "chuff"; the engine rolled over. I worked it back and forth for a minute, and it was perfectly fine. I pulled the valve cover and everything is nicely lubed, like the engine had been running yesterday, not some 30 years ago.

I then got some numbers and started calling around. In the written word, this takes a minute to read, but it was about 2 hours of phone work, because NO ONE has any information on this. But in the end it seems it is a 1979, 4 cycle Kubota Engine.

I got this information from a good friend of mine that owns a reefer repair shop. He told me to get the engine running and use it, because he never tears into the engines, they run forever, but rather the reefer is the part that breaks...
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: You Would Think this was Simple...

Post by CuttingEdge » Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:03 pm

How do you guys deal with the wiring on repurposed engines?

Do you remove it all completely, and then put back just what it needs to run...

or

Do you trace back the original wires to their source, and just get rid of the crap that is not needed?


I ask because this has a wazoo of wires. It also has these big "pucks" which say "solenoid" on them. They are about the size of a can of tuna fish. Anyway, I think they operate the start up, and shut down features of the engine because it was a reefer unit that cycled on and off all the time.

Being a stand-alone gen set engine, it would be nice to have some of these features, like low oil level, low oil pressure, etc, but is not really needed. I just really need a start circuit (12 volt), then a way to shut it down, and then a few gauges to show me what the engine is doing would be nice.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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