Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

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CuttingEdge
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Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

Post by CuttingEdge » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:58 am

I am having trouble getting my Cogeneration Engine to turn over. But today I grabbed the Fluke Meter and went to see where voltage was going.

It should not be an issue because this start circuit is very simple. The positive lead comes off the battery and goes straight to a plunger type switch; you know, like they had on old tractors. Big fat starter button that you step on with your foot. That kind of switch. With that pushed in, current goes back to the diesel engine starter in another big fat battery cable. So it is a simple switch, interrupting full current.

And off that switch, a smaller wire runs to the key switch, over to the voltage gauge, and then back to the S Lug on the starter. When the key is turned on, there is power at the terminal of that wire, at the starter.

There is one more wire, but on the original gasoline genset I stole this starter wiring from, the second wire went to the coil. Obviously I do not have that on this Kubota Diesel Engine. There is no electric solenoid on the injection pump...

So I should not need that wire at all, right?

Or does that go on the R Lug of the starter sednoid?

Or do I have the wires backwards?


There is no 12 volt charging circuit on this unit, as it is a Genset so I can just keep the battery topped off with a battery minder.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

Post by Jim B » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:02 am

Saying you have an S terminal on the starter, sounds like your starter has an electrically operated solenoid, which should wire up similar to the way your 350D starter did. If I sketched out the circuit you described right, you have power on the starter solenoid anytime the key is on, which it should not have. If I am correct in saying your starter has a solenoid on it, your battery cable needs to go direct to the battery terminal of the starter solenoid. Remove the plunger switch from the system. There should be a cable or strap from the other large terminal of the solenoid going into the starter. For easiest wiring you need a key switch with a start position. From the battery terminal of the starter solenoid run a wire (wire = 12 or 14 gauge) to the battery terminal of the key switch. Run a wire from the S (start) terminal of the key switch to the S terminal of the starter. If you only have an off-on key switch, you will need a momentary switch (your plunger switch will work here) to operate the solenoid. Run a wire from the I terminal of the ignition switch to one terminal of your plunger switch and another wire from the second terminal of the plunger switch to the S terminal of the solenoid. If you have an electric solenoid to turn the injection pump on, you need to run a wire to it from the I (ignition) terminal of the key switch as well.

Voltage gauge to me is a voltmeter which only tells battery voltage, not charge/discharge current which fits your having no charging system. For the voltmeter run a wire from the I terminal of the key switch to the + terminal of the voltmeter, run a wire to a good ground from the - terminal of the voltmeter. Voltmeters do not go "in line" with loads like an ammeter, passing load current through a voltmeter could make for a smoke show...

The second small wire going to the coil would have bypassed a resistor in the ignition circuit of the gas engine to provide full voltage to the coil/points for easier starting.

You should put some fuses or circuit breakers in to protect in case of short circuits. If you use the plunger switch remember if someone hits it with the engine running it will energize the starter just as turning the key switch to start will. HTH

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Re: Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

Post by CuttingEdge » Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:52 am

Sorry for not getting back to you on this, considering how lengthy your description was and all. I ended up meeting Bangor's Finest on Monday, so I did not get a chance to do much until yesterday.

While I was waiting for my people, to discuss things with their people, happy all the while I actually have people for that sort of thing, I did manage to gut all the wiring yesterday out of the start panel, and wired everything back like you said. Unfortunately it ended up being a smoke show. I think the problem is here:
Jim B wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:02 am
From the battery terminal of the starter solenoid run a wire (wire = 12 or 14 gauge) to the battery terminal of the key switch.
That wire gets really hot, really quick, so I assume there needs to be a resistor in that wire somewhere? It would only make sense that it is getting full current and amperage since it is directly connected to the battery by the starter battery lug.

I will dig around today with it a little more, as I have nowhere to go, and still waiting on phone calls.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

Post by Jim B » Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:01 am

Good morning,

Many, many, ignition switches get power as I described. No resistor between the switch and power source. Were you using the old panel with some of its wiring intact? That could enter into the reason it smoked. How many terminals on the key switch you are using? Does your old key switch have two terminals and come from an engine using a magneto ignition system? If so the switch used with magnetos ground the magneto to shut the engine down. If it was still in the old panel was one terminal of the switch hooked to ground? In that case if battery power was hooked to the terminal, that went to the magneto originally, that would make it smoke when the switch was in the off position.

Here are sketches of the two ways I described, neither should smoke.

Image

Jim

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Re: Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

Post by CuttingEdge » Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:49 am

Jim B wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:01 am
Good morning,

Many, many, ignition switches get power as I described. No resistor between the switch and power source. Were you using the old panel with some of its wiring intact? That could enter into the reason it smoked. How many terminals on the key switch you are using? Does your old key switch have two terminals and come from an engine using a magneto ignition system? If so the switch used with magnetos ground the magneto to shut the engine down. If it was still in the old panel was one terminal of the switch hooked to ground? In that case if battery power was hooked to the terminal, that went to the magneto originally, that would make it smoke when the switch was in the off position.

Here are sketches of the two ways I described, neither should smoke.

Image

Jim
Hey Jim...I really, really, really hope you did not think I was not grateful for your wiring ideas. I really am, and the problem ended up being me. Or at least the smoke show was. I do realize you wrote a lot, and were really helping me with this wiring circuit, so I really do thank you for your instruction on this.

The problem ended up being two tin-foiled fuses on the panel that were making contact, so that is why I was getting some amp readings on amp gauges that were not even hooked up! Talk about crazy.

I corrected that, but while nothing smokes any more, I got nothing on the starter. No click or nothing. I got current everywhere there should be current, when keys are switched on, and plungers pushed. The battery is brand new, and full-charged.

I wonder if it is just seized in place from sitting for 30 years, and the solenoid cannot make the starter engage?
The only other thing I can think of, is I smoked the starter solenoid literally when the key switching was smoking?

I will check
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

Post by CuttingEdge » Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:58 am

Jim B wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:01 am
Were you using the old panel with some of its wiring intact? That could enter into the reason it smoked.
Yes, there was two fuses left on the front panel, and that is why it smoked. That has been corrected.
Jim B wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:01 am
How many terminals on the key switch you are using?
I wired it to your first picture. I used (2) terminals on the (3) terminal key switch. They were all labeled and I could read them (with a magnifying glass because I am 45 years old) despite the switch being made in 1942. I used the battery terminal as I should have, and the ignition terminal, and have nothing on the accessory terminal.

I get power just where I should. Voltage off the battery, at the terminals on the key switch. They have power when the switch is on, and no power when Then power at the voltage meter. At the plunger...then when I push the plunger...to the other side of the plunger down to the start terminal of the starter. The battery lug has voltage...

Interesting, but I am getting closer...
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

Post by Jim B » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:10 am

Hoping these things help, some may, other thoughts may not, just throwing things out and trying to be clear in what I mean; I don't want to be the cause of smoke if I can help it. lol.

Have I guessed right on the type of starter, one with the solenoid mounted right on it, looks like the one your 350D had? If so try using a booster cable to jump from the battery terminal of the solenoid to the big terminal on the solenoid that goes to the starter, that will bypass the solenoid. The starter motor should spin when you do that. It likely will not turn the engine, as the plunger in the solenoid won't be pulling the drive in. If it does turn the engine it would mean the starter drive was stuck in. If the starter spins at least you will know that the starter motor itself turns. Then you might take the solenoid off and see if it has rusted in the plunger area and is just not pulling in.

Is the battery ground wire hooked to the engine in someway, a bad ground could prevent the starter from working as well.

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Re: Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

Post by CuttingEdge » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:15 am

Jim B wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:10 am
Hoping these things help, some may, other thoughts may not, just throwing things out and trying to be clear in what I mean; I don't want to be the cause of smoke if I can help it. lol.

Have I guessed right on the type of starter, one with the solenoid mounted right on it, looks like the one your 350D had? If so try using a booster cable to jump from the battery terminal of the solenoid to the big terminal on the solenoid that goes to the starter, that will bypass the solenoid. The starter motor should spin when you do that. It likely will not turn the engine, as the plunger in the solenoid won't be pulling the drive in. If it does turn the engine it would mean the starter drive was stuck in. If the starter spins at least you will know that the starter motor itself turns. Then you might take the solenoid off and see if it has rusted in the plunger area and is just not pulling in.

Is the battery ground wire hooked to the engine in someway, a bad ground could prevent the starter from working as well.
Yeah I have a good ground on the battery and engine, it bolts right to the starter bolt.

Equally, the starter has a solenoid just on top of it like a modern starter. I was just not sure which small lugs went where, but then I remembered only one was used, when I disconnected all the wiring, so it has to be wired right. I will try jumping it here in a minute.

I can tear the starter down if it is just a solenoid. I do not got anything else to do!

The Bangor police department stopped me for a turn light being out, and then nearly arrested me for having a suspended driver's license. Seems a Doctor said with my cancer I am not fit to drive! I thought now doesn't that beat all: I got (3) different job offers (Application passed, phone interview passed, and in-person interview passed) and NOW you tell me I cannot drive. That would have been a key piece of information to know about 3 months ago when they took it. Crazy: spotless driving record with no accidents, and I mean no tickets of any kind or anything, like even speeding tickets or anything. That was why I was not arrested, the police officer could not find anything on my record.

I told my people to tell her people that it is up to her. She can fill out the paper work so I can drive, or she can fill out the paperwork so I can get disability, but she has got to do something with the mess she made.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

Post by CuttingEdge » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:08 pm

I got the problem isolated: the insides of the starter look like Mar's; the red planet, with nothing but rust....

I got most of the starter freed up, including solenoid lever, the suspension of the brushes on the comm, and a few other parts. I am having a tough time getting the main bearing broke free though. It is soaking in WD-40 now because that is all I got, but it explains why it was not doing anything after I got the wiring right! (LOL)
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

Post by CuttingEdge » Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:04 pm

Well I had a good thing going until the last piece.

I went to put the starter back together after freeing everything up, and it snubbed up on a brush, and the 40 year old plastic busted and it is off to the starter shop. All is not bad though, one brush had long lost a spring, and a bolt was busted, so for $100 it will be as good as new.

That is, if they have parts. I imagine they could get something to make it work, it is only a brush. I am not sure Kubota changed all that much over the years on starter parts???
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

Post by CuttingEdge » Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:16 pm

That starter shop...Parts Alternative in Bangor, is a great place. They charge a flat fee of $65, and then whatever parts are needed to rebuild it. I told them that I knew how that worked, $65 and then everything needed new parts, but they said they worked for a dealership and they did that, so when they started this shop, they refused to do the same thing.

Now I just need Katie...

No joke. As you know, Katie and I often dress up when we go out, and so she would go up there with me to get bulldozer parts. She would have to go to the bathroom with the baby, and they would just watch her stagger across the shop in her stiletto heels. I do not think they got too many women in there who wore heels and a miniskirt because they always remembered me.

Last time I had my starter in there they tore it apart, found the problem in the solenoid, fixed it, and told me it was free. That is pretty amazing. I am not sure if Katie had anything to do with it or not, but it did not hurt. (LOL)
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

Post by CuttingEdge » Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:50 pm

I found out that the Diesel Engine I have been working on was not a Kubota after all, but rather a Perkins 4.108 diesel engine. Because a half-million were made between 1958-1992, there are plenty of parts for them.

I was able to get a brand new high speed, high torque starter for this engine for $139, which is comparable to rebuilding the old starter. Considering how often this will start and stop, it is probably best to get a new starter.

The other thing I was surprised at, was the horsepower. I thought it was a 30 HP engine, but it is actually 52 horsepower, so it could actually make 40 KW.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

Post by CuttingEdge » Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:22 am

The parts place called and said my starter was in.

I would go pick it up, but there is a new issue now, and my doctor said I cannot drive. It is ridiculous because I have been driving longer than she has been alive, and never even had a fender-bender, a ticket or anything. I am fighting it, but it is stupid in any case. So I cannot just go up to Bangor and pick it up. :-(

But that is okay. Katie wanted to rearrange the bedroom some. It was okay, just oddly shaped.

Originally it was normal 12 x 16 bedroom, but then we hated the long hotel-hallway look, so we stopped the hallway short, and put in a 4 x 4 game closet for the kids crafts and board games. That works well, but then it made the bedroom l-shaped, with an odd-looking exterior door.

Katie wanted that removed and filled in with regular wall, another window removed and filled in with wall, then another window converted to a patio door. Where the l-shape of the bedroom was, she wants to put in a separate shoe closet. I mean the 8 x 12 walk-in closet is not big enough for her shoe-collection, so she wants a separate shoe closet which she calls her "shoe barn". Only married men understand this issue I am sure.

Katie's first husband was very short, so he never allowed Katie to wear high heels because she would be taller than him. That meant when she met me, taller than her anyway, I did not care, so she went a little overboard on shoes. At one time she belonged to (3) shoe-of-the-month clubs if that tells you anything. She has cut it back to 91) now, but with a wife and four daughters in this house, we have plenty of shoes. The great shoe census of 2020 showed some 92 pairs of shoes last week, of which only (4) belong to me.

So I have been busy framing in new closets, removing windows and doors, and doing all manner of home construction, so it is okay if my generator set is on hold for awhile. I am staying busy.

Image
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

Post by Ray III » Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:57 am

I wish I had that many closets!

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Re: Old Starting the New (Starter Circuits)

Post by 77 Ford » Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:28 pm

Glad you are staying busy, and honestly staying home right now is not a terrible idea, especially with your preexisting conditions !

Gotta Stay Safe!
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