I Am Afraid of the Answer

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CuttingEdge
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I Am Afraid of the Answer

Post by CuttingEdge » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:41 am

I have to admit, I am afraid of the answer on this, because it has been said, "If you have to ask, you already know the answer."

In any case I have been getting my Perkins 4.108 diesel engine genset together, and thought everything looked good. But as I was putting on the air intake I noticed it has a little oil in the bottom of the air intake cover. So I thought I would clean that up before moving on.

A little oil turned into a LOT.

With only 2607 hours on the engine, I cannot imagine the rings are that worn. And there is no visible signs the engine is damaged at all. It is almost like upon storing it, someone dumped a quart of oil down the air intake and let it sit for 32 years. I would say about a quart of oil is what poured out of the air intake cover.

Now I am wondering, should I pull the head?

I really do not want too, but I cannot think of a reason why a quart of oil would sit in the air intake and not run down into the base. I mean it had 32 years to do so.

Here are some pictures as it was as of yesterday...

Image

Image
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

gaspumpsam
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Re: I Am Afraid of the Answer

Post by gaspumpsam » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:06 am

Maybe engine at one time was laying on its side for a period of time? If engine turns over with starter, I would try and start it.
If it starts and exhaust cleans up after a few minutes, you are ok. If it clunks and bangs or pukes, as it’s trying to start, you found out why
it was taken out of its original job.
If you take it apart , it’s going to be a few thousand to repair ,
Just my thoughts.

Jim B
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Re: I Am Afraid of the Answer

Post by Jim B » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:10 am

Are you calling the intake manifold the air intake cover? Or is there something ahead of the intake manifold? I don't see the air intake in your pictures, I'm guessing it is on the opposite side of the engine from the pictures you posted. Any oil would have to get past any valves that were closed and it would not flow to the valves if the configuration is such that the bottom of the intake is below the lowest point of the intake ports in the head. I don't remember if you have turned the engine over by hand and it is free; or have had it started. I would be sure it turns free, clean the oil out and try starting it. Have something ready to block the air intake off with in case it picks up some stray oil and tries to run away.

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CuttingEdge
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Re: I Am Afraid of the Answer

Post by CuttingEdge » Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:32 pm

Yeah it is the intake manifold...sorry, it has been a LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG time since I was in Diesel Tech school (1992).

It could have been on its side at one time, but it has been sitting right side up since at least 1990. If it was on its side, it would have just been the brief time it took to haul it out of the reefer trailer, to put into the shop.

The engine is not seized. I have rolled it over by hand, and it was sort of "set", but did not take much to get the engine to roll over by hand. But it will not roll over by the starter. It tries (it is a new starter), but as it comes up on compression the starter stalls out. But I only had (1) small car size battery for it, so I thought I would add a second.

But upon seeing the oil in the intake manifold, I thought maybe I should check things out before really trying to crank it over with lots of amperage.

The only thing I can think of, is someone dumped a quart of oil down the intake manifold upon storing it, and maybe rolled the engine over to get the oil in the cylinders. Maybe that is why it was not seized after sitting for 32 years? It is kind of hard to guess on what someone else did 32 years ago.

I did take the valve cover off and rolled the engine over by hand and saw the valves moving. I did not look to see if every one was moving, but jeesh it looked like a brand new engine inside there, so I was not concerned.

I tried taking off the injectors to see what was sitting on top of the pistons, but no amount of prying was getting them out of there.

I make the assumption that the engine was running when it was removed from the trailer. My uncle bought the trailer in 1988 and used it to store material for his carpentry business, so the reefer was not used. The chiller (refrigerator part) was all torn down, so I assume the engine was saved, and stored in the shop because it was still good. The company that owned the trailer went out of business about that era, and with the chiller shot, my uncle probably got the trailer for a very low price.

But it does not say much about Carrier. That reefer only averaged 289 hours a year for its 9 year lifespan. Or put another way: just 100 days operating time in 9 years.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: I Am Afraid of the Answer

Post by CuttingEdge » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:19 am

I am getting nowhere fast on this.

I tore into it this morning, and I thought I determined the problem: a stuck exhaust valve on #4 cylinder. It just did not act the way the others acted. But then when I tried rolling it over by hand, the valve was moving.

I get to a certain point though, and the engine stops rolling over. I get about 3/4 of a full turn out of it each way before it binds up.

I suppose it could be rust on the inside cylinder walls jamming the engine up at a certain point!
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: I Am Afraid of the Answer

Post by Jim B » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:20 pm

If it won't turn fully over freely, that is not good. If there is nothing obvious to be seen; it sounds like you need to pull the head to see what is wrong, if you decide to keep going with that engine. Perkins can be a pain as far as getting parts and can be pricey as has been mentioned. Hopefully the ID tag is still on the engine, you will need the numbers to get the right parts. I had to replace the fuel transfer pump on my Cat loader hoe and the injection pump shop needed the numbers from it to check for the right pump. They had a couple pumps that outwardly appeared the same but the numbers didn't cross. They actually checked prices and sent me to Cat as the pump was cheaper from Cat than they could get the same pump from Perkins. I'm not saying all Perkins parts are that way, but just to proceed with due diligence.

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Re: I Am Afraid of the Answer

Post by CuttingEdge » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:49 pm

Hey thanks Jim...I came to the same conclusion.

I even went up in my other shop and looked long and hard at that 6 cylinder White Diesel Engine sitting on the engine stand. It is freshly rebuilt, but it really is entirely too big. I have no idea where to put it! As is, I would have to tow it to the Generator shed with my skidder because I doubt my Kubota could. Then I looked up rebuilt diesel engines for sale, hung my head, and went back to into the shop to rebuild the one I got.

So I dug back into my Perkins and ended up pulling the head. In the end it was a mouse nest in #4 cylinder, and about an inch of sludge in the #3 cylinder. It turns over fine now!

I cleaned up the head some, but now I got to wait until the Top End gasket kit comes. While I am waiting for that to come, I might pull the oil pan and rinse the sludgy oil out down bottom.

The injectors were in sad shape, so I am tempted to have those tested/rebuilt, and possibly even the injection pump. Diesels just need squish-bang to run, so I know I got air and compression, so if I focus on the fuel, it should run.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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CuttingEdge
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Re: I Am Afraid of the Answer

Post by CuttingEdge » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:57 pm

When I was in Diesel Tech School the instructor was a former owner of a Massey Ferguson dealership, so he knew Perkins well. He really liked them, and we worked on our share. If I remember right, David Brown used Perkins Engines too.

But you are right on ordering the right parts, it gets confusing, and worse for me. That is because there is a whole page of changes that the 4.108 Reefer Engines have different than the Industrial Engines, which are different than the maritime engines. I live in Maine and close to the coast, so just about every Perkins Engine here is of the Maritime Variety.

Now that Caterpillar owns Perkins it adds another whole level of confusion I am sure.

My Injection Pump is a CAV variety, so very simple in design anyway. But I do worry about varnish, and then leaking. As you know, when an engine sits for years, the seals are fine where fluid sat, but after getting them going, the upper half of those seals are dry cracked and start leaking. So that is why I am considering rebuilding the injection pump.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: I Am Afraid of the Answer

Post by CuttingEdge » Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:24 am

With the power being out now, and for 3-1/2 days, I am convinced this is a worthy project, even if it is to get the hours off my ole tractor since it has been powering my home.

I got the top end gasket for the Perkins Engine this week, so I can put the head back on. I also took the oil pan off and got the oil/sludge cleaned out. But there I hit a snag. The oil pan is not one piece, it is (4) separate pieces. The seals were all dry-cracked and was brittle and broke right off. I can use RTV gasket for the main gasket area on the pan, but what about the crankshaft bearing oil seals?

I can buy them, but they look like rope gaskets...in fact they say rope gaskets. Well I got plenty of that for woodstove gaskets. Can I make my own seal out of fiberglass rope and RTV silicone. I would hate to put it all back together and have it leak.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: I Am Afraid of the Answer

Post by Lavoy » Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:49 am

I would use Right Stuff, never silicone for gaskets, but I have had terrible luck forever with RTV as a gasket replacement. I would get their rope for the seals, it is their spec for their engine. What if you guess wrong on your own home made rope, and it loses the rear main seal in the middle of the night while you are asleep. Then you get to look for a new engine too.
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gaspumpsam
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Re: I Am Afraid of the Answer

Post by gaspumpsam » Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:36 am

Lavoy is very right( again) about homemade rope crank seals.
Proper rope seals are impregnated with a mixture( mainly graphite- slippery) fibreglass rope would probably be very good as a grinding- polishing compound and wear a groove in the crank in about 1/2 hr, then burn up from heat( major friction ) sometime you just can’t do anything but get proper stuff! Will be a little money well spent.
Just my thoughts!

Happy Easter, everyone!

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CuttingEdge
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Re: I Am Afraid of the Answer

Post by CuttingEdge » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:28 pm

Hey thanks, this is why I asked...I will order them then. I can wait a few days for FedEx to bring them.

I have building my frame for this engine, and really need to get that done so I can drop the engine back into place after I get the oil pan buttoned up. Then I can put on the head, and the other parts, and get this back together.

Another question though...

Would you guys have the Injection Pump rebuilt? It looks like it is in mint shape, but it has been 32 years since it ran too. I am sure it is not damaged at 2607 hours, but it would have new gaskets and no varnish inside. Or I could just try it and hope for the best. If it works...great, but if not, then pull it and have it rebuilt then?

I am not sure what the cost would be. I think around $1100 or so by what online says, so it is not a cheap decision.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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Re: I Am Afraid of the Answer

Post by Lavoy » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:47 pm

$1100 seems a little high, but maybe Perkins is higher. I can likely get you an exchange pump if need be.
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Re: I Am Afraid of the Answer

Post by CuttingEdge » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:35 am

Lavoy wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:47 pm
$1100 seems a little high, but maybe Perkins is higher. I can likely get you an exchange pump if need be.
Lavoy
Hey thanks.

If you could get me a price on that it would be nice. All I know is that it is a C.A.V pump, so it is pretty basic, and used in a lot of engines. This one is the Perkins 4.108 engine, 1978 year...

It might be a bit before I will get that far. I have to get the head on this engine and adjust the valves first, so pulling it now would mess up with the injection pump's timing. It is going back together good though.

We just had a (4) day, 91 hour power outage due to the blizzard that hit us last week, then a gale that came up the coast a day later, so 90 hours is a lot to be putting on my Kubota. It really showed Katie and I that a dedicated gen-set would be really nice.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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CuttingEdge
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Re: I Am Afraid of the Answer

Post by CuttingEdge » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:40 am

Cost wise, I got about $400 in this genset as of right now, probably another $200 to go without the injection pump and rebuilt injectors; but a new 20 KW generator is $10,000...

That is not a bad deal, all in at around $2100 for 20 KW's...

For $2700 shipped to the house, I can get a 40 KW pto generator to match the power of the engine better...so a total cost of $4700 for a 40 KW generator which is pretty cheap over a new one ($12,500). But I really do not need the extra 20 KW, so it does not really make sense to do that.

Or...

I could just buy another 20 KW generator, couple that to the engine as well, and then get the synch equipment to synch the two together to get 40 KW. That is another option.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!

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