I hate skid steer loaders
- Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
I hate skid steer loaders
Hi,
Well, I never really liked them in the first place, preferring crawler-dozers and regular tractor-loaders. However, I didn't dislike them - much less hate them.
Oh, I hate them now!
Or, at least I hate this New Holland LS140 that has managed to land in my yard.
See, a friend at work bought this - not me. It's an eBay special. You know what *that* means! It's supposed to run, but miss on one cylinder. My buddy is OK with that, as he plans an engine rebuild anyway.
However, he lives in a subdivision and has no truck or trailer to haul even this baby loader on. He needs the machine to do some work at his elderly father's place. No problem. I'll lend a hand, haul it to his place where he can work on it in his garage, then haul it to his dad's after he gets it all sorted out. At least he has a garage to work on it in.
The plan was sound. Until we got to the place he bought it from, that is. I suspected we were in trouble when I saw the lineup of machines along the road, but the one he bought was out back in the weeds.
I *knew* we were in trouble when the guy loaded it onto my trailer using a Cat industrial forklift! :p
Well, we got it to his place OK. Too bad that the battery is no good. It read 10.5 volts and then instantly 14.5 when the jumper cables were connected. That means that the plates in the battery are sulfated. It's a 2000 model, and I bet $$$ that this is the original battery, so it all makes sense.
Well, it won't turn over at much more than a crawl. So, no start. I hadn't the room to get the trailer into his drive, so I hauled the thing to my farm. Heck, if he gets a battery and it actually starts, then I can haul it back, right?
So far, I'm not hating the thing, nor even disliking it.
Until we go to get the battery out, that is. That's when I discover that the oddball scissors boom lift scheme they have puts a big steel arm right in the way of the battery coming out. It was bad enough that they intend for you to pull the battery up by it's posts to get it out (it's down inside the belly pan on the right side), but this stinks.
At this point, I'm starting to dislike this thing.
I figure we can lift the bucket with a chain onto my tractor's loader and then engage these big old holding pins they have. Except, the hyd spool valves won't work with the low voltage. They have some safety lockout scheme going on here, and it's safe, all right.
Now, I do dislike the thing.
We revert to the jumper cables, pull the voltage up, and the thing still won't lift up. Time to read the manual, I guess. Oh, wait! You have to stick *blocks* under the tail end to stop the lifting loader from tipping the fool thing over backwards *before* you can actually get the thing up into the air!
What a PIA!
All I want to do is change the battery!
So, I *now* hate the fool thing!
We haven't even started into the *real* problem. If I have this much trouble changing a *battery*, what will we get into trying to pull, rebuild, and install the danged *engine*?????
Well, I can't block the tail end with it on the trailer. I may have to yank the thing off with the old 1958 420c to do so. I'm going to make up some big, fat 12" long battery cable extensions to hook the new battery up when he gets it. Maybe, we can get it fired, operate the hydraulics, and then swap the batteries.
Maybe.
If this works, I'll go back to just disliking it! :p
Gad. And I thought that working on crawler/loaders was a PIA! They're easier by far, I think.
I do know one thing - I'm not ever getting myself a skid-steer loader!
Later - and thanks for the venting space!
Stan
Well, I never really liked them in the first place, preferring crawler-dozers and regular tractor-loaders. However, I didn't dislike them - much less hate them.
Oh, I hate them now!
Or, at least I hate this New Holland LS140 that has managed to land in my yard.
See, a friend at work bought this - not me. It's an eBay special. You know what *that* means! It's supposed to run, but miss on one cylinder. My buddy is OK with that, as he plans an engine rebuild anyway.
However, he lives in a subdivision and has no truck or trailer to haul even this baby loader on. He needs the machine to do some work at his elderly father's place. No problem. I'll lend a hand, haul it to his place where he can work on it in his garage, then haul it to his dad's after he gets it all sorted out. At least he has a garage to work on it in.
The plan was sound. Until we got to the place he bought it from, that is. I suspected we were in trouble when I saw the lineup of machines along the road, but the one he bought was out back in the weeds.
I *knew* we were in trouble when the guy loaded it onto my trailer using a Cat industrial forklift! :p
Well, we got it to his place OK. Too bad that the battery is no good. It read 10.5 volts and then instantly 14.5 when the jumper cables were connected. That means that the plates in the battery are sulfated. It's a 2000 model, and I bet $$$ that this is the original battery, so it all makes sense.
Well, it won't turn over at much more than a crawl. So, no start. I hadn't the room to get the trailer into his drive, so I hauled the thing to my farm. Heck, if he gets a battery and it actually starts, then I can haul it back, right?
So far, I'm not hating the thing, nor even disliking it.
Until we go to get the battery out, that is. That's when I discover that the oddball scissors boom lift scheme they have puts a big steel arm right in the way of the battery coming out. It was bad enough that they intend for you to pull the battery up by it's posts to get it out (it's down inside the belly pan on the right side), but this stinks.
At this point, I'm starting to dislike this thing.
I figure we can lift the bucket with a chain onto my tractor's loader and then engage these big old holding pins they have. Except, the hyd spool valves won't work with the low voltage. They have some safety lockout scheme going on here, and it's safe, all right.
Now, I do dislike the thing.
We revert to the jumper cables, pull the voltage up, and the thing still won't lift up. Time to read the manual, I guess. Oh, wait! You have to stick *blocks* under the tail end to stop the lifting loader from tipping the fool thing over backwards *before* you can actually get the thing up into the air!
What a PIA!
All I want to do is change the battery!
So, I *now* hate the fool thing!
We haven't even started into the *real* problem. If I have this much trouble changing a *battery*, what will we get into trying to pull, rebuild, and install the danged *engine*?????
Well, I can't block the tail end with it on the trailer. I may have to yank the thing off with the old 1958 420c to do so. I'm going to make up some big, fat 12" long battery cable extensions to hook the new battery up when he gets it. Maybe, we can get it fired, operate the hydraulics, and then swap the batteries.
Maybe.
If this works, I'll go back to just disliking it! :p
Gad. And I thought that working on crawler/loaders was a PIA! They're easier by far, I think.
I do know one thing - I'm not ever getting myself a skid-steer loader!
Later - and thanks for the venting space!
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
I just took the hydro pumps out of a Bobcat 843 filled to the brim with swill, you don't want to get me started on how ingeniously they had those installed.
At some point I started wondering what happens when you have to replace the drive chains on the thing. I can see no accessible chain case. There is some mysterious compartment at the bottom of the machine underneath all the guts, with the big hoses going to it, but how to get in there is a mystery to me -- even with the pumps out of the way. That machine will probably be banned from the shop if we manage to get it together again.
Then there is the fact that skid steers SUCK for trying to do anything with.
At some point I started wondering what happens when you have to replace the drive chains on the thing. I can see no accessible chain case. There is some mysterious compartment at the bottom of the machine underneath all the guts, with the big hoses going to it, but how to get in there is a mystery to me -- even with the pumps out of the way. That machine will probably be banned from the shop if we manage to get it together again.
Then there is the fact that skid steers SUCK for trying to do anything with.
- Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
Well, he got a battery. Now it fires up. On two of the three cylinders, anyway. Sounds like a piston is hitting on a dropped valve. He ran it long enough to take off my trailer, anyway, and he gets to work on it from here. I've seen enough, I think, at this point to refuse to own one if someone were to give them away!
Another friend has a Bobcat, and it appear that one has to tear the thing all the way apart to access the drive chains. It's as bad as the New Holland as far as accessing things go. As I say, I always thought that crawler/loaders were a pain, but I have found something even worse!
Later!
Stan
Well, he got a battery. Now it fires up. On two of the three cylinders, anyway. Sounds like a piston is hitting on a dropped valve. He ran it long enough to take off my trailer, anyway, and he gets to work on it from here. I've seen enough, I think, at this point to refuse to own one if someone were to give them away!
Another friend has a Bobcat, and it appear that one has to tear the thing all the way apart to access the drive chains. It's as bad as the New Holland as far as accessing things go. As I say, I always thought that crawler/loaders were a pain, but I have found something even worse!
Later!
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
I have a late '60s Melroe (Bobcat) skid steer, and it is pretty simple. It is chain driven instead of a full hydrostatic drive through use of a drive belt and sheave system. The chains are easily accesible through side panels on each side of the skidsteer body, and the battery is directly below the seat (one panel to remove).
I can sympathize with late modelskidsteer owners, as they are about as complex as the new lines of crawler dozers and loaders.
I always thought that some innovative company out there (automobile or construction equipment company) could get a lot of market share if they designed the machine in mind for the average shadetree mechanic (i.e. parts layout designed for modular components that are easily removed and replaced and that could be swapped from machine to machine).
I can sympathize with late modelskidsteer owners, as they are about as complex as the new lines of crawler dozers and loaders.
I always thought that some innovative company out there (automobile or construction equipment company) could get a lot of market share if they designed the machine in mind for the average shadetree mechanic (i.e. parts layout designed for modular components that are easily removed and replaced and that could be swapped from machine to machine).
(1) JD Straight 450 crawler dozer with manual outside blade; (2) JD 2010 diesel crawler loaders; (1) JD 2010 diesel dozer with hydraulic 6-way blade; (2) Model 50 backhoe attachments, misc. other construction equipment
- Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
Well, we could always just make a new copy of a 440. That'd fit the bill!
I truly wish someone would. I want to buy a new 440 with the 64 PAT!
The Bobcats that were made by Clark aren't too bad. Yet another friend has one of those, and I find it on par with a cralwer/loader to work on the few times he's needed a hand with it.
So, that is part of the source of my surprise with the New Holland. The two skid steers are like comparing apples and oranges, or maybe wheel tractros with crawlers!
Later!
Stan
Well, we could always just make a new copy of a 440. That'd fit the bill!
I truly wish someone would. I want to buy a new 440 with the 64 PAT!
The Bobcats that were made by Clark aren't too bad. Yet another friend has one of those, and I find it on par with a cralwer/loader to work on the few times he's needed a hand with it.
So, that is part of the source of my surprise with the New Holland. The two skid steers are like comparing apples and oranges, or maybe wheel tractros with crawlers!
Later!
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
The way they are trying to make money now is to sell something that looks shiny on the outside, but so complex on the inside that when it breaks you have no choice but to take it to a stealership and pay them $100 an hour to plug in a computer with some top secret videogame software.Tigerhaze wrote:I always thought that some innovative company out there (automobile or construction equipment company) could get a lot of market share if they designed the machine in mind for the average shadetree mechanic (i.e. parts layout designed for modular components that are easily removed and replaced and that could be swapped from machine to machine).
Some skid steers were built all right. I have worked on a couple Gehls with no problem. The Deeres are good machines except the ones with plastic doors.
- Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Update - I only dislike it now :P
Hi,
Well, the thing is now in his yard. The new battery at least fires it up. It hammers pretty bad, so we did some simple troubleshooting before moving it anywhere.
The stethoscope indicates it's up top. Oil pressure is good, so that's at least a good sign. No metal bits in the oil, either, also good. Compression test shows cyl 2 is way down - almost gone -, but cyl 1 is lower than spec while cyl 3 is still good. Pulled the valve cover and they all have their springs and retainers and at least go up and down.
I strongly suspect a hole burned into a piston at this point. Might still be something else, but the valve clearences are all in spec and none look like they're not coming up far enough. He'll have to pull the head before we know for sure.....
However, after making those checks it seemed like we could run the thing long enough to put it back onto the trailer and then at his place, move it the 150 feet from the trailer onto a parking pad alongside his garage. This way, he doesn't have to drive 25 miles to my place before working on anything each and every time. He's worked on engines before, so his garage has enough tools to pull this one out, stand it and then tear it down.
It was noisy, but didn't get worse during the move, anyway. It smoked some while we were messing with it in my yard, but it cleared up while he was driving it to it's spot. I suppose that's a good sign as well.
So, now he gets to work on it at his liesure.
Further bulletins as events warrant....
Oh, and after the mucking about trying to change a battery when things were in our way and couldn't be moved until *after* a new battery was installed - working on this hasn't been nearly the nightmare it started out to be. Once you get that scissors boom up and the pins locked, the shields come off easily and then you *can* actually get to things with relative ease.
So, I no longer *hate* the poor little thing. I now merely *dislike* it!
Who knows? Once he gets the hammermill (I swear I could have poured corn into the intake and gotten cracked corn feed out the tailpipe - it's that loud) he has by way of an engine sorted out, it gets to come back down and play in the dirt on the farm. Maybe after a day of playing with it in the dirt, I might actually grow to like the thing!
Later!
Stan
Well, the thing is now in his yard. The new battery at least fires it up. It hammers pretty bad, so we did some simple troubleshooting before moving it anywhere.
The stethoscope indicates it's up top. Oil pressure is good, so that's at least a good sign. No metal bits in the oil, either, also good. Compression test shows cyl 2 is way down - almost gone -, but cyl 1 is lower than spec while cyl 3 is still good. Pulled the valve cover and they all have their springs and retainers and at least go up and down.
I strongly suspect a hole burned into a piston at this point. Might still be something else, but the valve clearences are all in spec and none look like they're not coming up far enough. He'll have to pull the head before we know for sure.....
However, after making those checks it seemed like we could run the thing long enough to put it back onto the trailer and then at his place, move it the 150 feet from the trailer onto a parking pad alongside his garage. This way, he doesn't have to drive 25 miles to my place before working on anything each and every time. He's worked on engines before, so his garage has enough tools to pull this one out, stand it and then tear it down.
It was noisy, but didn't get worse during the move, anyway. It smoked some while we were messing with it in my yard, but it cleared up while he was driving it to it's spot. I suppose that's a good sign as well.
So, now he gets to work on it at his liesure.
Further bulletins as events warrant....
Oh, and after the mucking about trying to change a battery when things were in our way and couldn't be moved until *after* a new battery was installed - working on this hasn't been nearly the nightmare it started out to be. Once you get that scissors boom up and the pins locked, the shields come off easily and then you *can* actually get to things with relative ease.
So, I no longer *hate* the poor little thing. I now merely *dislike* it!
Who knows? Once he gets the hammermill (I swear I could have poured corn into the intake and gotten cracked corn feed out the tailpipe - it's that loud) he has by way of an engine sorted out, it gets to come back down and play in the dirt on the farm. Maybe after a day of playing with it in the dirt, I might actually grow to like the thing!
Later!
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
- Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Another update
Hi,
I saw my buddy again today, and he's pulled the head and the problem isn't there. The #2 piston has some unusual motion in the bore, so now it's either the rod bearing or the wristpin that's in trouble, I'm thinking.
Of course. He was hoping to not have to pull the block, so naturally that's what he now has to do!
Later!
Stan
I saw my buddy again today, and he's pulled the head and the problem isn't there. The #2 piston has some unusual motion in the bore, so now it's either the rod bearing or the wristpin that's in trouble, I'm thinking.
Of course. He was hoping to not have to pull the block, so naturally that's what he now has to do!
Later!
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
- Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
We don't need no stinking bearings!
Hi,
Oh, this is a good one!
My buddy pulled the oilpan last night, and noticed that somone had torched off some of the skid plate to allow said pan to drop out. So, someone was already in there ahead of him at some point......
So, he pulled the #2 rod cap and - you ready for this?
Are you sure??
OK.....
There is *no* rod bearing *at all* !!!!!
It's not that it has been hammer welded to the rod. It's not in pieces in the pan. It's not stuck in the oil screen. It's-just-plain-gone -- and I'm talking both halves!
Now I understand the noise in the stethoscope up top. The piston was moving up to far in the bore and hitting the head!
That explains why it soulded like both a dropped valve up top and a rod bearing down below. No bearing at all!! I'm flabbergasted!
Best we can figure the original owner (or operator) had a rod bearing spin and unlocked the engine by removing the pan and then yanking out the bearing - and then put it back together and ran it some more!!
I've seen some numb-nuts things and heard about a great many more, but *this* one takes the Booby Prize First Class!
Sheesh!
Oh, and I don't think that the guys my buddy got this from did this. They just picked it up cheap and passed it on thru eBay, not having touched the thing. I'm sure they started it, heard the hammering, and then figured that was as far as they wanted to go!
I don't blame them!
Later!
Stan
Oh, this is a good one!
My buddy pulled the oilpan last night, and noticed that somone had torched off some of the skid plate to allow said pan to drop out. So, someone was already in there ahead of him at some point......
So, he pulled the #2 rod cap and - you ready for this?
Are you sure??
OK.....
There is *no* rod bearing *at all* !!!!!
It's not that it has been hammer welded to the rod. It's not in pieces in the pan. It's not stuck in the oil screen. It's-just-plain-gone -- and I'm talking both halves!
Now I understand the noise in the stethoscope up top. The piston was moving up to far in the bore and hitting the head!
That explains why it soulded like both a dropped valve up top and a rod bearing down below. No bearing at all!! I'm flabbergasted!
Best we can figure the original owner (or operator) had a rod bearing spin and unlocked the engine by removing the pan and then yanking out the bearing - and then put it back together and ran it some more!!
I've seen some numb-nuts things and heard about a great many more, but *this* one takes the Booby Prize First Class!
Sheesh!
Oh, and I don't think that the guys my buddy got this from did this. They just picked it up cheap and passed it on thru eBay, not having touched the thing. I'm sure they started it, heard the hammering, and then figured that was as far as they wanted to go!
I don't blame them!
Later!
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
- Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2898
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
Yeah! That's what I said! Put 'er back on eBay!
Well, he's going to fix it, so I guess the Buck Stops Here - or more accurately, *his* bucks get to *leave* here, as it were!
On the bright side, so far this is all he's found to be wrong with it. I'm still waiting to see the crankshaft, though. Bet he needs a new one......
Later!
Stan
Yeah! That's what I said! Put 'er back on eBay!
Well, he's going to fix it, so I guess the Buck Stops Here - or more accurately, *his* bucks get to *leave* here, as it were!
On the bright side, so far this is all he's found to be wrong with it. I'm still waiting to see the crankshaft, though. Bet he needs a new one......
Later!
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
I have to imagine that you're right about the crankshaft- the journal that was missing the connecting rod bearings has to be gouged up. Never heard of a crazy thing like that.Stan Disbrow wrote:I'm still waiting to see the crankshaft, though. Bet he needs a new one......
Last edited by Tigerhaze on Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
(1) JD Straight 450 crawler dozer with manual outside blade; (2) JD 2010 diesel crawler loaders; (1) JD 2010 diesel dozer with hydraulic 6-way blade; (2) Model 50 backhoe attachments, misc. other construction equipment
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